audiA6v

I have read a bunch of stuff on here about the benefit of having the S3 VS (such as being able to remove the MAF screen) and I was all ready to buy one when I came across a thread telling me that 100/A6s come stock with velocity stacks. Is there still a benefit to installing the S3 VS or should I just remove my MAF screen without any problems?

VAP

and any benefit for him would be miniscule/negligible over what he has now. Thats SPCIFICALLY why the S3 VS was never marketed to or intended for use on the "C" chassis airboxes. Unlike us B-chassis owners he can get virtually 95%+ of the benefit we gain from adding an S3 VS just by removing his MAF screen "if" he has an S3 MAF or similar. If MAF isnt S3 or bored out there's really little-to-no appreciable gain removing any MAF screen.

EDIGREG

even though I have other induction mods? What is the big difference between B and C airboxes?

I definately had a noticable gain with a ram air setup and S3 VS as opposed to a Big mouth cone setup...I was just posting based on my own experience. Are there more gains to be had by purchasing a B airbox? TIA.

VAP

and are calling "S3" but that term is one I coined, machined and made parts for that were flowed on a bench to a given specification and were modular so when added together they all flowed better than the sum total of each individual part. That term started out as S1, then S2 and eventually S3 as flows increased. It was an evolutionary process that could only be achieved by additional CFM of air on a flow bench. I think what you mean is that you have a 3" induction kit and not an S3 kit. Especially when coupled with the fact I never made one for your application. There was also a quality involved. Aluminum bead rolled couplers were machined to have tapered inlets to create velocity stacks at EVERY inlet and then lapped and honed for maximum airflow and were flowed on a bench to achieve that. Recovery sleeves were meticulously machined for maximum flow and also finished to a specific surface micron where boundary layer disturbances were mimimized with very specific bell-shaped inlet/outlet that outflowed all other shapes/geometries. There's a LOT more to the term "S3" than just throwing together "off-the-shelf" hose and couplers. Even the clamps in an S3 induction system are works of art. Being ABA Swedish SS clamps with rolled edges and no perforations thru the band to chew the soft silicone hose undeneath them. They are all perfectly smooth/flat and slippery on their underside specifically to slide across silicone under pressure and prevent silicone damage.

In flow testing airboxes it was discovered that the C-chassis cars could not benefit dramatically or even very significantly by having their internal air horn/velocity stack replaced. And to make one to "S3 spec" would've required a whole new velocity stack be designed if it were to offer significant/dramatic increases as the standard S3 VS couldnt be made to fit as it is a VS specifically designed to fit only 2 airboxes out there, ie; the B4/B5 12V airbox. And there are simply too few "C-chssis" cars out there looking for these types of modifications. The costs involved with re-tooling, having special VS forming dies for one chassis was exhorbitant. No one would've paid $600 for a velocity stack. And a mated pair of VS forming dies for that specific airbox will set you back upwards of $10k! How do you then price them reasonably knowing full well you may only ever sell 15 or 20 of them!?!

People knew and trusted the term "S3" as the best designed, engineered and flowed induction components for the 12V they could find anywhere and for any price. And "S3" does not mean a 1.5 foot length of silicone, a coupler and two 90* silicone elbows with a couple of hardware store type hose clamps. No, S3 was/is a LOT more than those things. And just calling something "S3" does not make it S3. What is does do is insure somewhere down the road I'll have someone pissed at me because I wont replace some failed part. Because it was sold as "S3" I "must" have made it right!?! I mean who else would make a 3" hose kit and call it/sell it as "S3"!?!

EDIGREG

However, YOU DONT MAKE THEM ANYMORE. Maybe you've moved on, or don't have time to manufacture/distribute the parts...Whatever your personal reason is, so be it...but the fact remains that there are lots of people on this board attempting to mod their 12v's, much like myself.

So, we are reduced to doing anything we can to squeeze more power out of the 12v, and especially at this point, it's hard. There is little help given from the "elders" like yourself, and when a question is posed, such as above, you seem to be more worried about telling a novice how inexperienced or out of place they are, rather than helping them.

If you were still making the S3 kits when I did these mods to my car, I would have certainly purchased one from you, because I KNOW the meticulous time you put into perfecting them on a flow bench. But you weren't, so I "did it myself". It's clearly "not as good", but it's certainly better than stock IMO.

I appreciate your response, but I still don't really feel my questions are answered. I have not read one post regarding the C chasis and S3 mods until now...What exactly is different besides the airbox that prevented you from marketing the S3 to C chasis owners? Does putting a B airbox in a C4 nullify these differences, or is it more complicated than that? And what can I do to improve the setup I have currently, even though its not "S3 Spec"? I'm incredibly interested and want to LEARN from the wealth of information you have to offer. Please guide me in the right direction.

Lastly, Thank you for your time Mance. Despite what negative feelings you may have about this forum and it's newer users, I can tell you that your posts are greatly appreciated by myself and many others. Nobody here is looking to contradict or argue with you, we just want to learn. I want to encourage discussion, and pose new questions, thoughts, and possibilities.

VAP

and throws a car together using different parts and specs have they in fact made a Hudson? A Packard? Can they then sell them when they dont wanna play with them any more as a Hudson/Packard? Do the buyers that buy them try to find Hudson/Packard replacement parts that are nowhere close to the same?

If I stop making hose kits is it really fair for someone to make a lesser kit and call it what I called mine?

Do you know how many other people claim to have S3 MAFs that dont!?! S2, S3, XTB and SXTB throttle bodies that were never made by me? How many people I have to deal with per annum claiming to have one of my "lifetime warrantied" parts they purchased at Ebay or AudiFans using "my" trade-names that I never made!! Have any idea how humiliating/embarrassing it is to tell people "umm, sorry but you didnt buy an S3 MAF or an S3 throttle body or hose kit even tho it was advertised as such?"

Then you want us older, more knowledgeable people to take part at what is now "your" forums. To help you with specific problems you have and to help you find more power for these engines. Yet you plagerize those same peoples designs, trade-names without so much as asking permission, giving credit or offering a simple "thanks." Not that I have any problem with anyone bolting on a 3" hose kit of their own design. But when they call it "S3" I do have a problem with it because sooner or later someone is gonna expect me to warranty it. And just because I dont make it doesnt make it the "real deal" as the name implies. All because the DIY'er neglected to mention in the sales ad for it that it wasnt "really an S3 hose kit, MAF or throttle body." And guess who gets to clean up that mess and/or deal with it once you do that!?! Hint: It wont be you!

It's true, all the old timers have fled. And the reasons are bountiful. Each one has had his time, efforts, posts, contributions and accomplishments here smeared, compromised, belittled and/or outright dismissed. Then everyone claims to want them back yet we all know what awaits us. And there's just not too many of us willing to grease up, bend over and back into it again. People here now duplicate other peoples achievements without even asking permission then dont even bother with a simple acknowledgement of thanks. Its like everyone here feels they were "owed" that. Take, take, take with no "give" proffered.

We left you guys a wealth of info in the archives. There was NO archive when we arrived here, rather only a blank white page. I'm afraid at this point you'll have to make-do with that legacy as I talk with many of the old-timers and I've yet to find one even the slightest bit enthusiastic about returning here and taking another shellacing from this predominately impudent, argumentative/combative, selfish, self-absorbed and self-centered crowd. Things change and we're all fine with that where we are now. We left you better off than we found the place. Now its your turn to innovate, design and make this place better than you found it. We cannot be here to do that for you too. You've insured that can never happen again for us.

The challenge is squarely on your shoulders, not ours. There is a very specific reason this forum, which at one time was among the most prolific and heavily participated-in forums at AW is today one of the slowest. There's a reason why its now one of the least attended and least participated-in at AW, sometimes going for 5+ days without a post. And it aint related to the cars! And its not because the old-timers arent here any longer. Its because the current crowd is. You guys "made" it this way and you couldnt have done a better job if you tried. But you do have a choice and least for now its salvageable and rebuildable. It may not always be. But "we" cannot, will not step in and rebuild what you guys have single-handedly torn apart. It's up to each and everyone of you. Its that way with "any/all" forums.

EDIGREG

First of all, I NEVER plagiarized your design...In fact, I made certain that when referring to my DIY kit, to call it a "knock-off" or similar term. I never even came CLOSE to "taking credit" from you, and I try to always acknowledge you as the sole creator of these parts, as well as the "father" of 12v modding, while posting on this forum. If you feel differently, I am sorry. It was never my intention to "steal your thunder".

Having said that, I understand that the community that was once here is long gone, and the crowd is now very different. But I also believe that your description (predominately impudent, argumentative/combative, selfish, self-absorbed and self-centered crowd) is clearly skewed by some users who choose to act that way. While there may be a certain population of users who fit your description, there are equally as many people such as myself who are seeking professional advice and the right way of doing things. I am looking for criticism. I am looking to be corrected by someone who knows a lot more than me. I take a positive attitude towards modding and discovering new things, but the fact of the matter is I do not have the experience or funds to "innovate or design" Audi parts. I have no machine shop or flow bench in my basement, nor do I have the knowledge of how to use these tools. I am an independent user on these forums, and certainly can't control the "current crowd". There's no way for me, or anyone else, to "single-handedly" rebuild the community. Months ago, I registered a domain in anticipation of launching a website dedicated to the 12v. I planned on having mod info and how-to's, cross-links to AW posts, featured users, where to buy, etc. It's far from done, but seeing people like you "disappear" just discourages me further. Despite what you may think, your help is needed! The number of AW forum users has increased significantly, and with 130,000 people, you're bound to have some bad apples. I know there are also many other users in my shoes, dumbfounded as to what happened to the forum. I joined AW about 14 months ago, and since then have seen a rapid decline in enthusiasm and interest in general. But it seems to me that rather than try to weed out the bad, you "elders" just got rid of the good. You have 420 deleted posts alone, and combined with all the posts that Mr. D and others have deleted, it's a significant chunk of the "archive" gone. It seems to me like you guys don't want to share the information, as if the current crowd isn't worthy of reading it. I do understand that you guys feel your accomplishments have been smeared or compromised, but in my eyes the only way of correcting this is to reinforce the truth.

I hope you can tell that I DO CARE. I certainly wouldn't be typing this if I didn't. As I said in the final paragraph of my last post, I TRULY do appreciate all the time and effort that has been put forth by you and others. As far as I'm concerned, this is still "your" forum, the elders' forum. Not mine, and certainly not anyone else's.

VAP

At one time I was the forum sponsor here and made parts for many Audi platforms other than the 12V. By being a paid forum banner advertiser and sponsor there are many, many "time-sensitive" posts that need be deleted once time-fames are met or passed. Things such as group purchases, temporarily out-of-stock items and short term needs for other types of sales or a tester needed for something as well as many, many other reasons. Yet your post would have people believe all those deleted posts were exclusively at the 12V Development Forum. Rather than a 7+ year culmination of ALL deleted posts at ALL AW forums. Further your implication is directly presented to imply I and others here not only deleted some posts but that those posts were directly aimed at the 12V Forum and its attendees as some form of censure to prevent the current people from learning what we did. And none of this addresses posts that moderatiors delete because they feel they are inappropriate, inflamatory or other violations of the "terms of service" provided here. Both are self-absorbed, selfish, self-centered, even somewhat delusional/paranoid accusations which are not based in any semblence of reality.

And then you wanna come off all doe-eyed under the guise of knowledge-thirsty and wanting to learn. Truth is you'll never solicit loyalty at gun-point or with such a misplaced and accusatory tone. You've merely just confirmed what I've already said about the people here... in SPADES!! You've done nothing to instill any separation between you, your behavior here and the people you say you're not part of, then in the very next sentence became them. You've simply said one thing then done the opposite.

You'll catch more flies with honey than gaul
despite the altogether rare and alien concept you personally may find the notion.

And lose the paranoia... no one I know of here is out to deprive you of any archival info.

EDIGREG

You don't know me at all, and YOU are making accusations based on a couple of forum posts. You refer to "my behavior" as if you have met me. Like you just said, I speak of WHAT I KNOW. I've been reading/learning on here since I registered, and I share the experiences that I have had with other users. What else can I speak of besides the facts that I have experienced myself? And the only way to know more is to learn from people who have experiences which I don't.

"And then you wanna come off all doe-eyed under the guise of knowledge-thirsty and wanting to learn"...Why in the hell would I even be posting here if I weren't interested in learning about 12v development? Maybe it is your delusion that for some reason I would "bluff" about wanting to learn?

OK, so I was wrong for stating that your deleted posts contained any important information. Sorry. I figured that some of those deletions had to do with time sensitive material, etc, but youre going to tell me you havent deleted anything important? How about all the images associated with the IM and head workshop posts? You're going to tell me you didn't delete those photos because you don't care about who has/does not have access to them any longer? Those photos were there 14 months ago, I know that much.

Take for example, Mr. D's website...which he immediately deleted or moved upon "retiring" from the forum. Let me guess, he canceled his internet and moved? Or he actually just didnt care to share that information any longer?

Furthermore, I don't understand how you can sit there and criticize my "tone", after I just praised you as being a forefather. I'm giving you respect, but for some reason you have a problem accepting it.

VAP

so what-say we drop it? Dont you have a forum to build or sumthin? I know I do. And you're off to SUCH a bang-up start!

;-)