VAP here are the pics you wanted..
02-07-2009, 11:43 AM
#1
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VAP here are the pics you wanted..
I was playing with it today and it does not seem to be bent at all. But it is trimmed quite a bit.
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake1.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake2.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake3.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake4.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake1.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake2.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake3.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/113690/intake4.jpg">
02-08-2009, 01:56 PM
#2
Ok, now I can see what you've done vs what I was trying to do...
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/711/90hl3.jpg"></center><p>
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand/visualize your approach. Above is a picture of the same rubber elbow, from a different angle that the original poster was asking about adopting.
It is a 3" ID hose with a 1.5" minor/internal radius. Easy to know that radius by measuring the pink circle I've nestled up against that hose in pic. If you hold a caliper up to that pic on your screen it will show the pink circle ID to be approaximately the same as the hose ID. The full circle is "diameter" while half of it is the "radius." That would necessarily make it have an 18" major/external radius if it were a continuous circle with no straight leg outlets. Basically it would be an 18" OD with a 3" ID circular piece of tubing. Given that, if it were cut into 4 equal Ht/Wt sections, from 12-to-6 and again from 9-to-3 o'clock sections each of those pieces would be 9" long. All the 12V chassis's I know of have less than half that.
To trim that elbow down further to where it becomes asymetrical, out-of square or less than a constant radius elbow causes several things to occur in-use. If you were to cut along the red lines in pic above you'd find the best flow but no way to make the elbow fit between throttle body and firewall, least on a 12V OEM chassis specification. If you trim back to the blue lines you'd find that in one axis your elbow is now ~3.25" ID while 3" in another axis. Still fits but now isn't a smooth transition out of or into it's hose couplers or throttle body flange as once attached to either of those the full "highest flowing" radius has been compromised and is lost. The hose now flows less volume, with less velocity and has internal turbulence. If you cut along the yellow lines you get a great fit in the tight location but you have no easy course for getting over to the MAF outlet. That virtually insures using 2 like or similar elbows back-to-back with associated small hose couplers to get back into the proper angle and an alignment you can live with. Additionally there's simply no way 2 back-to-back small partial elbows will ever flow as well as a single radius elbow of the proper angle. I also believe it entirely possible just looking at your pictures that your silicone hose is/was not identical to the rubber hose pictured above and in the original thread. Methinks you "maybe" have an elbow with a slightly smaller minor/internal radius than the original hose mentioned in that thread. 3" elbows come in a H-U-G-E assortment of internal/external radii and not just one or two.
And in closing let me say I'm not saying it was your intention to build the most expensive or highest flowing hose kit you possibly could. What you have will definately flow better-than-stock and by a hefty margin. For daily or even competitive use it's light years above what came on the car originally. But I didn't write this post specifically for you even tho I did ask you to help me out with some pics of what you've done. I wrote it for ALL who might read it and/or especially those who may also be looking to do this mod in the future or improve flow over what they may be using now. And to show how purchasing a ready-made off-the-shelf silicone elbow that is incredibly well-suited to this application is readily available without so much trimming and absolutely flows better for all the reasons mentioned above.
Hey, I'd still LOVE to get a more gradual higher-flowing elbow than I currently have but no amount of trimming a larger minor radius elbow is going to facilitate that until and if I grow some real estate between my throttle body and firewall. The simple short/stubby "full radius" elbow remains the best option, least for me as far as volume, velocity and smooth air transition thru the intake tract from airbox-to-throttle body.
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand/visualize your approach. Above is a picture of the same rubber elbow, from a different angle that the original poster was asking about adopting.
It is a 3" ID hose with a 1.5" minor/internal radius. Easy to know that radius by measuring the pink circle I've nestled up against that hose in pic. If you hold a caliper up to that pic on your screen it will show the pink circle ID to be approaximately the same as the hose ID. The full circle is "diameter" while half of it is the "radius." That would necessarily make it have an 18" major/external radius if it were a continuous circle with no straight leg outlets. Basically it would be an 18" OD with a 3" ID circular piece of tubing. Given that, if it were cut into 4 equal Ht/Wt sections, from 12-to-6 and again from 9-to-3 o'clock sections each of those pieces would be 9" long. All the 12V chassis's I know of have less than half that.
To trim that elbow down further to where it becomes asymetrical, out-of square or less than a constant radius elbow causes several things to occur in-use. If you were to cut along the red lines in pic above you'd find the best flow but no way to make the elbow fit between throttle body and firewall, least on a 12V OEM chassis specification. If you trim back to the blue lines you'd find that in one axis your elbow is now ~3.25" ID while 3" in another axis. Still fits but now isn't a smooth transition out of or into it's hose couplers or throttle body flange as once attached to either of those the full "highest flowing" radius has been compromised and is lost. The hose now flows less volume, with less velocity and has internal turbulence. If you cut along the yellow lines you get a great fit in the tight location but you have no easy course for getting over to the MAF outlet. That virtually insures using 2 like or similar elbows back-to-back with associated small hose couplers to get back into the proper angle and an alignment you can live with. Additionally there's simply no way 2 back-to-back small partial elbows will ever flow as well as a single radius elbow of the proper angle. I also believe it entirely possible just looking at your pictures that your silicone hose is/was not identical to the rubber hose pictured above and in the original thread. Methinks you "maybe" have an elbow with a slightly smaller minor/internal radius than the original hose mentioned in that thread. 3" elbows come in a H-U-G-E assortment of internal/external radii and not just one or two.
And in closing let me say I'm not saying it was your intention to build the most expensive or highest flowing hose kit you possibly could. What you have will definately flow better-than-stock and by a hefty margin. For daily or even competitive use it's light years above what came on the car originally. But I didn't write this post specifically for you even tho I did ask you to help me out with some pics of what you've done. I wrote it for ALL who might read it and/or especially those who may also be looking to do this mod in the future or improve flow over what they may be using now. And to show how purchasing a ready-made off-the-shelf silicone elbow that is incredibly well-suited to this application is readily available without so much trimming and absolutely flows better for all the reasons mentioned above.
Hey, I'd still LOVE to get a more gradual higher-flowing elbow than I currently have but no amount of trimming a larger minor radius elbow is going to facilitate that until and if I grow some real estate between my throttle body and firewall. The simple short/stubby "full radius" elbow remains the best option, least for me as far as volume, velocity and smooth air transition thru the intake tract from airbox-to-throttle body.
02-08-2009, 02:42 PM
#3
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Ah thanks for the explanation...
I now see what you meant now by not getting yours to fit at all. I believe I trimmed mine somewhere between the purple and blue lines in your pic.
I bought the cheapest elbow I could find. Would I feel the benefit by buying the tight angled elbow? The one at turbohoses.com is $80 and money is tight, so if it wouldn't be that big of a change it might not be worth it(unless there is a less pricey alternative).
What I need to do is get a throttle body and attempt a good DIY. I think I would be able to get more airflow myself (over the blau sleeved TB that I am currently using) following your advice.
Thanks again
I bought the cheapest elbow I could find. Would I feel the benefit by buying the tight angled elbow? The one at turbohoses.com is $80 and money is tight, so if it wouldn't be that big of a change it might not be worth it(unless there is a less pricey alternative).
What I need to do is get a throttle body and attempt a good DIY. I think I would be able to get more airflow myself (over the blau sleeved TB that I am currently using) following your advice.
Thanks again
02-08-2009, 03:02 PM
#4
Pic 2; Costs less, less waste, less trimming, and higher flow volume, velocity...
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/711/silelbow1.jpg"></center><p>
and smoother airflow transitions with less turbulence. Air is not dissimilar to water or even a car going fast around a high-speed sweeping turn. Air at velocity is similarly pushed "outward" even when inside a tube towards the major/outside of an elbows inside diameter. Simply put; the air does not want to turn. But it will if directed or forced. Given that, the air will flow at a higher velocity with greater volume and with less turbulence if allowed to follow a "uniform" radius to a "natural" straight "90 degree opposed" outlets. If a radius is cut short of the naturally-cccuring straight and then clamped to a hose flange and throttle body that are 90 degrees opposed to each other then both the hose joiner outlet and throttle body inlet are not smooth even transitions into or out of the designed radius and cause turbulence.
If I flow this elbow and the one like it in the post above on the bench side-by-side, the more gradual 3" elbow will KILL this one flow-wise. If I modify the elbow in my above post to match this elbows dimensions enough to make it work in the same area between throttle body and firewall this elbows wipes the floor with the one in the previous post... by over 30%!
And this 2-ply elbow, in silicone with short legs originally is usually 1/3-1/2 less cost than a more gradual radius elbow. And this elbow keeps ALL, virtually 100% of it's trimming within the outlets and beyond the radius. With this type elbow I only throw away a maybe 1.25" long piece of "straight." With the more gradual/larger radius elbows I throw away LOTS more as gradual radii elbows ALWAYS have longer straights (but admittedly those can be used if you need short sections of hose later). But in 20+ years I've NEVER, even once found an opportunity to use em! Yet I keep saving em ;-)
Anyone/everyone is free to do anything they want. And I have zero issues with that. My only question would be; if you're gonna be a dog, why "insist" on being a Chihuahua!?! Especially if Great Dane, Irish Wolfhound etc is cheaper, less work and flows better!?!
;-)
and smoother airflow transitions with less turbulence. Air is not dissimilar to water or even a car going fast around a high-speed sweeping turn. Air at velocity is similarly pushed "outward" even when inside a tube towards the major/outside of an elbows inside diameter. Simply put; the air does not want to turn. But it will if directed or forced. Given that, the air will flow at a higher velocity with greater volume and with less turbulence if allowed to follow a "uniform" radius to a "natural" straight "90 degree opposed" outlets. If a radius is cut short of the naturally-cccuring straight and then clamped to a hose flange and throttle body that are 90 degrees opposed to each other then both the hose joiner outlet and throttle body inlet are not smooth even transitions into or out of the designed radius and cause turbulence.
If I flow this elbow and the one like it in the post above on the bench side-by-side, the more gradual 3" elbow will KILL this one flow-wise. If I modify the elbow in my above post to match this elbows dimensions enough to make it work in the same area between throttle body and firewall this elbows wipes the floor with the one in the previous post... by over 30%!
And this 2-ply elbow, in silicone with short legs originally is usually 1/3-1/2 less cost than a more gradual radius elbow. And this elbow keeps ALL, virtually 100% of it's trimming within the outlets and beyond the radius. With this type elbow I only throw away a maybe 1.25" long piece of "straight." With the more gradual/larger radius elbows I throw away LOTS more as gradual radii elbows ALWAYS have longer straights (but admittedly those can be used if you need short sections of hose later). But in 20+ years I've NEVER, even once found an opportunity to use em! Yet I keep saving em ;-)
Anyone/everyone is free to do anything they want. And I have zero issues with that. My only question would be; if you're gonna be a dog, why "insist" on being a Chihuahua!?! Especially if Great Dane, Irish Wolfhound etc is cheaper, less work and flows better!?!
;-)
02-08-2009, 03:18 PM
#5
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I would love to be an Irish wolfhound!
The sharp angled silicone seems to be more expensive from what I've seen, but clearly I have not seen it all... Please tell me where you get those cheaper than a gradual!
I believe I paid around $25 for the one I have on ebay.
I believe I paid around $25 for the one I have on ebay.
02-08-2009, 03:27 PM
#6
Buying from ANY manufacturer will ALWAYS be more expensive than an Ebay purchase...
Even manufacturers who sell on ebay are "usually" selling 2nds or "blems." Products that perform 100% functionally (ideally) but aren't always visually perfect, ie; blems=blemishes. Nothing wrong with that if it saves a few bucks. I haven't bought elbows for a long time but I'm guessing that an elbow similar to mine would run in the +/- $50 range in silicone. Maybe 1/3 less if they could be found in rubber. But other here have purchased these far more recently than I have and I'm sure are willing to share where they got theirs and what they paid.
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02-08-2009, 08:56 PM
#9
ok, here ya go. tight radius, good price and under 2 minutes. there's hundreds out there!
ahh but now I see it's in Hong Kong. Gimme another minute or 2 and I'll be back.<ul><li><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Silicone-90-degree-Elbow-Hose-76mm-3-Silicon_W0QQitemZ120273541722QQcmdZViewItem">http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Silicone-90-degree-Elbow-Hose-76mm-3-Silicon_W0QQitemZ120273541722QQcmdZViewItem</a</li><
02-08-2009, 09:07 PM
#10
here's another
<ul><li><a href="http://stores.channeladvisor.com/autogrimmig/items/item.aspx?itemid=11928842">http://stores.channeladvisor.com/autogrimmig/items/item.aspx?itemid=11928842</a</li></ul>