Turbochargers, Superchargers, PES, Oh my...
08-13-1999, 12:25 PM
#1
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Turbochargers, Superchargers, PES, Oh my...
Find myself a bit confused. I hear constantly on the NG about how the 1.8T is a far superior engine to the 2.8 and how the turbocharger is superior to everything else available. Adding a chip, exhaust, and whatever else the mindless after market companies can sell the masses on only for the dream of getting their cars to achieve such goals that the Mustang and Cameros of the world already do, is this really a goal? Introduce the PES Supercharger for the 1.8T. The successful 2.8 supercharger system has left many happy customers in it's path providing almost 300 hp out of the 2.8 engine, yet the "1.8'ers" are relentless in saying that the 2.8 is a poor engine and is out dated technology. Now PES comes out with a supercharger kit that replaces the turbocharger in the 1.8T with a supercharger and produces about 5 lbs. of boost to achieve what take the 1.8T owners chips and other miscellaneous upgrades to achieve without the added street of increasing the boost. Is this to tell me that the "1.8S" is a better setup? Could this be true? After hearing all about how the 1.8T is a "technologically advanced" piece of hardware and how nothing can touch it (at least how I interpreted it). What gives? Supercharge or Turbocharge the 4-banger?
08-13-1999, 01:28 PM
#2
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Supercharge the 1.8 for low end power, do the same to 2.8 for rallying or racing
It really is an arguement about cost as much as anything, however.
What you want vs. what you can afford.
I would love to supercharge my 2.8, but I might as well get the S4 and all its fun and gadgets (nav system, etc.)
What you want vs. what you can afford.
I would love to supercharge my 2.8, but I might as well get the S4 and all its fun and gadgets (nav system, etc.)
08-13-1999, 03:16 PM
#4
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How about a superturbocharger :)
But seriously, I got the 1.8T because of the price. A chip set me back another $400 so my car stayed under $26k. I figure a supercharger kit would go for at least $4k.
Supercharger? I don't know - I'm not sure the 1.8 engine's internals were designed to handle 260HP - maybe they could, but then you're dangerously close to the safety limits. I'm not even sure I want that much horsepower without upgrading the rest of the car (brakes!!, suspension, tires etc). If you start going that way, you'll end up paying many more thousands of dollars.
Another (even bigger) point - you may weasel your way around warranty issues when you have a chip (especially those who have a second ECU), but this would never work if you supercharge it. Then you can definitely kiss your warranty goodbye.
Finally, I think if I had ever wanted such a car, I would probably have gone for the S4 - it's blindingly fast while stock, has excellent warranty, can be made even faster with a chip.
Supercharger sounds good, but I think I'm too chicken for that! Or maybe I'll get a ride into someone's supercharged 1.8 and change my mind on the spot
.
adc
Red 1.8T QMS
Supercharger? I don't know - I'm not sure the 1.8 engine's internals were designed to handle 260HP - maybe they could, but then you're dangerously close to the safety limits. I'm not even sure I want that much horsepower without upgrading the rest of the car (brakes!!, suspension, tires etc). If you start going that way, you'll end up paying many more thousands of dollars.
Another (even bigger) point - you may weasel your way around warranty issues when you have a chip (especially those who have a second ECU), but this would never work if you supercharge it. Then you can definitely kiss your warranty goodbye.
Finally, I think if I had ever wanted such a car, I would probably have gone for the S4 - it's blindingly fast while stock, has excellent warranty, can be made even faster with a chip.
Supercharger sounds good, but I think I'm too chicken for that! Or maybe I'll get a ride into someone's supercharged 1.8 and change my mind on the spot
.adc
Red 1.8T QMS
08-13-1999, 04:52 PM
#7
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Both great engines.
Both A4 engines are technologically very advanced. The reason the 1.8T engine is so hyped (and should be) is that it is a turbo engine for the factory...therefore possessing much higher tolerances for added forced induction than a non-aspirated engine. The 'gains' available out of the 1.8T are so big because the engine is strangled at birth with only 150hp and .5 bar of boost. Look at other small turbo engines like the Talons/Eclipses...also 4-cylinder turbos from the factory and also capable of putting out big-time horsepower without any real internal work (too bad the rest of the car has terrible reliability). I'm guessing that the S4 will also be very tuneable for the same reason...it's got the great V6 with the 5-valve technology, plus it's built for turbo from the factory. My only concern is that they had to thicken the cylinder walls and reduce it to a 2.7L instead of the 2.8...this tells me that the tolerances for big-time added hp may not be as high as for the 1.8T.
Other opinions welcome!
Will<ul><li><a href="http://vu.union.edu/~allenw">Will's A4 page</a></li></ul>
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08-13-1999, 05:18 PM
#8
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Supercharging and Turbocharging... some thoughts...
After reading some of the things posted on here, I've noticed that there are some inaccuracies posted by people, as well as unanswered questions.
First of all, you guys have to realize that when you buy something like a supercharger or a turbocharger for your 1.8 4 cyliner engine, it's not just a bolt on addition. You have to realize the amount of modifications made to your car in order to handle this power. Getting 166hp per liter in a turbo aspirated car may sound tough, but realize that when you are putting something like this in the car, that the amount of changes made to the car are quite hefty, and the parts that are changed are the parts that are not capable of handling such power. It's not like you are just taking out that .5 bar boost ECU and the K03 turbo and putting a huge new turbo and new ECU in there. The effort that has to be made to allow this kind of output does call for extensive modifications to the engine.
Also Todd mentioned in his original post that the goal for trying to achieve 5 second 0-60 times is to be like a mustang or a camaro. That's TOTALLY not the case. A4s really don't compare to mustangs or camaros. First of all, the handling capabilites with quattro is, as we all know, just unprecidented. Combining handling with raw power does not make your car a drag car, like a mustang. It truly makes your car a sports car. Some people may like that notion, but I think all of us want the extra power, but really they want to have everything from their A4. They've got the wheels, the coilovers, or the springs and shocks, now all they need is that awesome power, and what they'll have is one hell of an Audi! That's my reason.
Going on to try to answer you quesiton on whether to supercharge or turbocharge your A4 - I think there could probably be a nice lenghty book written on why to go one way or another. To generalize, I'm just going to say that it really depends on what goals you want to achieve from this power. You want off the line power? Supercharging is a good way to go. You want high end power at high speeds. Turbo's are highly effective at high speeds.
Personally, I am undecided on whether to go for a supercharger or a turbocharger. I want to get more finalized data from APR and PES first. I want prices, I want a list of parts, I want dyno charts, 0-60 times, quarter mile times, etc. If APR is saying that their 0-60 is 5 seconds and PES is saying theirs is 5.2, and APR will cost me less (if I already got their ECU and Exhaust). APR will be the route I go. I am not commiting myself to one or the other as of yet. Soon though.
Marcus Frost.es (in Spain)
99.5 1.8TQM (Waiting for me @ home?)
First of all, you guys have to realize that when you buy something like a supercharger or a turbocharger for your 1.8 4 cyliner engine, it's not just a bolt on addition. You have to realize the amount of modifications made to your car in order to handle this power. Getting 166hp per liter in a turbo aspirated car may sound tough, but realize that when you are putting something like this in the car, that the amount of changes made to the car are quite hefty, and the parts that are changed are the parts that are not capable of handling such power. It's not like you are just taking out that .5 bar boost ECU and the K03 turbo and putting a huge new turbo and new ECU in there. The effort that has to be made to allow this kind of output does call for extensive modifications to the engine.
Also Todd mentioned in his original post that the goal for trying to achieve 5 second 0-60 times is to be like a mustang or a camaro. That's TOTALLY not the case. A4s really don't compare to mustangs or camaros. First of all, the handling capabilites with quattro is, as we all know, just unprecidented. Combining handling with raw power does not make your car a drag car, like a mustang. It truly makes your car a sports car. Some people may like that notion, but I think all of us want the extra power, but really they want to have everything from their A4. They've got the wheels, the coilovers, or the springs and shocks, now all they need is that awesome power, and what they'll have is one hell of an Audi! That's my reason.
Going on to try to answer you quesiton on whether to supercharge or turbocharge your A4 - I think there could probably be a nice lenghty book written on why to go one way or another. To generalize, I'm just going to say that it really depends on what goals you want to achieve from this power. You want off the line power? Supercharging is a good way to go. You want high end power at high speeds. Turbo's are highly effective at high speeds.
Personally, I am undecided on whether to go for a supercharger or a turbocharger. I want to get more finalized data from APR and PES first. I want prices, I want a list of parts, I want dyno charts, 0-60 times, quarter mile times, etc. If APR is saying that their 0-60 is 5 seconds and PES is saying theirs is 5.2, and APR will cost me less (if I already got their ECU and Exhaust). APR will be the route I go. I am not commiting myself to one or the other as of yet. Soon though.
Marcus Frost.es (in Spain)
99.5 1.8TQM (Waiting for me @ home?)
08-13-1999, 05:47 PM
#9
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For the kind of cash these kits cost, try to drive them both before deciding.
After all, that's how most people settled the decision about whether to buy a BMW or an Audi or something else. Numbers and figures are all just that. For the kind of investment these kits are asking for, it should definitely be possible to find someone within driving distance who will take you for a spin in their car. I know I gave a bunch of rides in my 1.8T to previously unknown A4'orgers, as someone did for me before I bought my 1.8T.<ul><li><a href="http://vu.union.edu/~allenw">Will's A4 page</a></li></ul>