Audi Junkie

I've been following the issues with excess wear and fuel dillution in the new VAG engines, but am just still getting the basics. It seems serious fuel wash is contaminating, both physically and chemically the oil in these applications, resulting in alarming wear rates. VW 502 and newer 504 oils don't seem able to deal with it. Our friend from Rhode Island has taken to custom formulation from BioLubes and World-Class consulting from Terry Dyson on a better solution (pardon the pun) for these engines. Mobil 1 appears to be among the worst oils coping with fuel chemical contamination.

I think it's important enough to pass along and for people to be aware of. Again, 10k intervals are NOT an option. I have some personal recommendations on oils other than BioLube RS4 oil, but that stuff is the real deal. Read up and post any UOAs results or word-of-mouth you have.

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www.renewablelube.com


"We're currently running 5K drains on the BioSyn oil in my engine, which is probably one of the harshest environments around, and included 2 1/2 hours at full power on the track at Lime Rock. (The RS4 V8 produces 420 HP at 7800 rpm, with a 8250 rpm redline. Oil temperatures in normal driving typically run 220F, with track oil temperature running about 260F. I am not gentle with my engine, which Terry can attest to.) Oxidation, Nitration, and soot analysis numbers are extremely low. Normal (non-track) operation should give us at least a 7K OCI. I would have run longer, but we have a tweaked formulation that Terry wanted me to try that he believes may be good for close to a 10K OCI.

For a point of reference, Audi 502.00 approved oils, when operating in this engine, have a life of about 3K miles before the oil has diluted and sheered to the point that it is dangerous, with incremental wear numbers that start heading off the chart, and flashpoint dropping near the operating temperature of the oil.

As for cost, this oil is less expensive than the Motul I was using previously. At this point, BioSyn has greater than twice the life expectancy of 502 oils and is less than twice the cost of the least expensive 502 oils. 502 oils generally range from $5 to $12/Qt in price. The most expensive BioSyn blend is less than $10/Qt. So from a cost/OCI point of view, Renewable Lubes Biosyn is the least expensive alternative. If we look at wear and engine cleaning performance, then it just blows away all other oils, IMO.

Here are the list of oils that have failed to perform well:
Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Mobil 1 0W-40
Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40
Motul 8100 Etech 0W-40
Motul Xcess 5W-40
Motul V300 5W-40
Amsoil Euro 5W-40

After 12K miles of testing it was clear that no 502 oil was going to perform well. There was enough data for Terry and I to conclude that there were some serious fuel dilution issue that would require a more specialized oil. Terry had some theories on how fuel dilution could be reduced, and using an available non-502 oil we tested that theory, and found it to be correct. (That would be the Nifty Oil Experiments" section of my wear plot.) I can't speak for Terry, but I know that if Redline had the right characteristics he would have recommended it. At this point, I asked him to recommend and/or formulate the best possible oil for the RS4 engine. Nothing was off the table.

As for your second question, I do not believe that 504 oils are providing any better protection. We do have data on one 504 oil. It is the factory oil shipped with engine. The factory oil is definitely a 5W-30 oil and has been reported to be Fuch Titan GT 1 5W-30. UOA on multiple engines show that it does not perform substantially better than the best 502 oils. And when compared to the BioSyn, it performs much worse."

Also:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=946457&amp;an=0&amp; page=0#Post946457

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=834580&amp;an=0&amp; page=0&amp;gonew=1#UNREAD

TJHUB

This is just a little scary... I just purchased a case of Mobil 1 0W-40 today as well...

lnferno

Subscribing...

joeymagl

Is it due to engine type and track use or is this some thing that you can read across to daily use?

Audi Junkie

lower NoX and/or some other gasses. RI_RS4 explains how the fuel mapping in the ME9(?) is quite precise and not alone responsable for the FD. Like I said, it's not unique to this car or driver. All new VAG engines are showing high wear and high fuel in the oil. VW 502 is an old spec from 1998, run on a VW 2.Slow Jetta engine. The FSI system taxes the oil much worse via fuel. So, I'll follow and interpret as best I can, I just wanted to get this info out. As I said before my friend got a B7 and I won't be letting him go 10k on oil change, no way. I don't now how perfectly my oil extractor pump works on this engine and it will be a long time until I try on his, but it's a great tool and sucks out the oil via dipstick tube in some engines more oil than draining from the bottom. Guys here should def consider one, easy 10 minute oil change w/o putting a knee on the ground. Pela 6000, about $30 at jerrybleach.com I'll check back after re-reading the thread.

Audi Junkie

dillution, chemical breakdown, is something that people will be looking at. fwiw, Terry Dyson is tops in his field, working for basicly every oil co and many auto companies. He surprised me all the time with his knowledge of engine design and metallurgy. Bearing composition is a extreme science all it's own. Al, Si, Sn and Pb are all used in matricies for bearing materials and show up along with the other engine metals in mass spectroscopy Used Oil lab Analysis, a $25 service at wearcheck, Blackstone, Castrol et al.. Generally, Pb = bearing wear, Al &amp; Fe = cyl bore, Cu &amp; Sn = rings. This all depends on engine metallurgy and oil formulation. There is a lot more to oil formulation than people realize. Just use your Mobil out to 5k and maybe get an analysis. I'll look for some 2.0T analysis to post here for reference.<ul><li><a href="http://periodic.lanl.gov/default.htm">Los Alamos Periodic Chart of the Elements</a></li></ul>

TJHUB

many miles on per year. It may be overkill, but if I'm not impressed with the B8 I may just keep this car.

LAS

Thanks for the info.

Audi Junkie

The extractor is good for other things, like PSF and trans that have dipsticks. My Acura calls for 10k oil/20k filter changes. The Honda filters are the size of a thimball. Anyway, removing the oil removes the contamination. My guess is that the diesel-rated 5w-40s like Delvac-1 aka Mobil 1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel Truck and Shell Rotella T Synth are better than dealer Syntec 5w-40. I will be using Rotella T Synth in my friend's 2.0T.<ul><li><a href="http://www.jerrybleach.com/pelaapplications.html">http://www.jerrybleach.com/pelaapplications.html</a</li></ul>

TJHUB

to get rid of it and switch to something better. Still going for 3K for the Mobil 1.

Thanks for all the great info.