Anyone else not a big fan of traction / stability control?
12-08-2009, 12:08 PM
#11
Hate the electronics including ABS. No fun and not safe for me.... I know how and adore driving.
Don't mind it as a feature on the car for hwy traffic, but I wish there was simple off switch that kept it off even after resetting ignition. That would suit me fine.
I find the looong button press each time I get in the car as annoying as the system.
My all-time favourite driver will always the BMW e36 and earlier. Nothing fuddling up the purity of driving. e46 and on have also gone all virtual and electronic.
But, all in all this Audi A4 Avant is the best car I've owned to date after owning Bimmer 3 series since the 90s. BMW best for all out sport, but now as I enter my 40s, I like the Audi mix of driving with luxury and a way more civilized ride/handling compromise (toward comfort on non sport A4 like mine). Plus the Audi is so well made on inside and out. A real level up on other cars.
Don't mind it as a feature on the car for hwy traffic, but I wish there was simple off switch that kept it off even after resetting ignition. That would suit me fine.
I find the looong button press each time I get in the car as annoying as the system.
My all-time favourite driver will always the BMW e36 and earlier. Nothing fuddling up the purity of driving. e46 and on have also gone all virtual and electronic.
But, all in all this Audi A4 Avant is the best car I've owned to date after owning Bimmer 3 series since the 90s. BMW best for all out sport, but now as I enter my 40s, I like the Audi mix of driving with luxury and a way more civilized ride/handling compromise (toward comfort on non sport A4 like mine). Plus the Audi is so well made on inside and out. A real level up on other cars.
Last edited by Mitch105; 12-08-2009 at 12:14 PM.
12-08-2009, 12:24 PM
#12
If, IF, ABS actually increases stopping distances, it comes with a benefit that overcomes what modest increase there MIGHT be: the car can be steered while stopping.
I have taken the Audi 2 1/2 day winter driving school classes, in Austria, personally, 4 times (each time in January).
One of the first things they do at the school is have you drive to a certain speed, then at the first orange cone slam on the brakes (as hard as your leg can push) in an Audi A4. You do this exercise 8 times.
4 times with the A4's ABS "on" and then 4 times with the A4's ABS "off" (the A4's have an off on switch for the ABS -- non standard equipment.)
The faster the "trap speed" is the longer the non ABS stop is, compared with the ABS stop. At about 15-20MPH both cars stop in about the same distance.
BUT -- and here is why ABS wins every time. Not only do you have to stop the car, but you have to keep it in your lane while you are stopping. Later exercises include maximum stopping AND negotiating an "S" curve while doing so.
The non ABS car is unable to match any stopping and steering exercise and it only ties on a rather slow stop, but still slides out of its lane into "opposing traffic."
The "trick" to making ABS stop shorter is to PRESS HARDER (which, I admit, almost no one ever will do). I took the same test on WET PAVEMENT which is part of the BMW 2 day driving school. Same result, except that the ABS ALWAYS stopped shorter.
The instructor, at both schools, said, "you must press the brake pedal with enough force [in your imagination, at least] to BEND the brake pedal itself. No one (except the Hulk) can actually bend the metal, but the concept it, ABS works at maximum efficiency to stop the car ONLY if it is pressed as hard as possible.
Now, TODAY, although this remains correct, it can be amended -- IF you have ABS+Brake assist, the power brake actually provides a lot of the extra push (to bend the pedal) for you, IF you press the pedal quickly.
Brake assist varies the initial braking force based on the speed of deployment. Press the brake pedal quickly, the power boost presses it harder, typically, than your muscles (initially). Press the brake slowly (and firmly) and the Brake Assist computer assumes this is a hard, but not panic stop.
Quick presses on the brake pedal increase the boost, increase the urgency of the braking action; and, quick PLUS hard increases the boost even further -- but, and this is what screws things up, you must PRESS INTO the ABS "buzz"!
Most folks either reduce brake pressure when the ABS vibration begins or they stop pressing harder when they sense the ABS has kicked in -- in panic situations, either response is incorrect. To stop in as short of a distance as possible, you must press the pedal harder, regardless of the ABS's sensation on your foot.
ABS stops shorter and allows the driver to remain in control, as a practical matter. Technically, there are circumstances where ABS does NOT yield stops that are as short, but they are few and very far between.
I have taken the Audi 2 1/2 day winter driving school classes, in Austria, personally, 4 times (each time in January).
One of the first things they do at the school is have you drive to a certain speed, then at the first orange cone slam on the brakes (as hard as your leg can push) in an Audi A4. You do this exercise 8 times.
4 times with the A4's ABS "on" and then 4 times with the A4's ABS "off" (the A4's have an off on switch for the ABS -- non standard equipment.)
The faster the "trap speed" is the longer the non ABS stop is, compared with the ABS stop. At about 15-20MPH both cars stop in about the same distance.
BUT -- and here is why ABS wins every time. Not only do you have to stop the car, but you have to keep it in your lane while you are stopping. Later exercises include maximum stopping AND negotiating an "S" curve while doing so.
The non ABS car is unable to match any stopping and steering exercise and it only ties on a rather slow stop, but still slides out of its lane into "opposing traffic."
The "trick" to making ABS stop shorter is to PRESS HARDER (which, I admit, almost no one ever will do). I took the same test on WET PAVEMENT which is part of the BMW 2 day driving school. Same result, except that the ABS ALWAYS stopped shorter.
The instructor, at both schools, said, "you must press the brake pedal with enough force [in your imagination, at least] to BEND the brake pedal itself. No one (except the Hulk) can actually bend the metal, but the concept it, ABS works at maximum efficiency to stop the car ONLY if it is pressed as hard as possible.
Now, TODAY, although this remains correct, it can be amended -- IF you have ABS+Brake assist, the power brake actually provides a lot of the extra push (to bend the pedal) for you, IF you press the pedal quickly.
Brake assist varies the initial braking force based on the speed of deployment. Press the brake pedal quickly, the power boost presses it harder, typically, than your muscles (initially). Press the brake slowly (and firmly) and the Brake Assist computer assumes this is a hard, but not panic stop.
Quick presses on the brake pedal increase the boost, increase the urgency of the braking action; and, quick PLUS hard increases the boost even further -- but, and this is what screws things up, you must PRESS INTO the ABS "buzz"!
Most folks either reduce brake pressure when the ABS vibration begins or they stop pressing harder when they sense the ABS has kicked in -- in panic situations, either response is incorrect. To stop in as short of a distance as possible, you must press the pedal harder, regardless of the ABS's sensation on your foot.
ABS stops shorter and allows the driver to remain in control, as a practical matter. Technically, there are circumstances where ABS does NOT yield stops that are as short, but they are few and very far between.
12-08-2009, 12:34 PM
#15
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Of course it does. Just like tiptronic shifts faster than a manual car. But that's not the point. Does tiptronic makes it more fun to drive? No. Neither does ESP.
12-08-2009, 12:37 PM
#17
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One of the first things they do at the school is have you drive to a certain speed, then at the first orange cone slam on the brakes (as hard as your leg can push) in an Audi A4. You do this exercise 8 times.
4 times with the A4's ABS "on" and then 4 times with the A4's ABS "off" (the A4's have an off on switch for the ABS -- non standard equipment.)
4 times with the A4's ABS "on" and then 4 times with the A4's ABS "off" (the A4's have an off on switch for the ABS -- non standard equipment.)
12-08-2009, 12:47 PM
#18
IF?
How about this for an experiment. Drive down the road. Approach a stop sign. Press the brakes. ABS engages, the car rolls, ABS pulsing madly, through the stop sign, and into the intersection. Been there, done that. Same with my nutso steep road. And that was with BOTH feet pressing as hard as possible on the brake pedal. There's a reason I call them Anti Stop Brakes.
Yes, you can steer, and in my case, I had to steer into a snow bank to stop the car.
Granted, that was with 3 season tires, proper snow tires do improve the braking, but I'd still rather have a bit more lock up and let the tires claw for traction, and build up nice ramps of snow (or gravel) to stop the car.
I've never been happier than when my ABS computer died in my A6.
Having said all of this, I live in Vermont, I've been driving in snow since I was 14 years old (38 now) and consider myself above average at car control, especially in snow. I LOVE going out to play in the snow, the deeper the better. I practice it, I crave it.
Your average joe might not feel the same as I do, I'm merely relaying MY personal feelings on the matter. =)
How about this for an experiment. Drive down the road. Approach a stop sign. Press the brakes. ABS engages, the car rolls, ABS pulsing madly, through the stop sign, and into the intersection. Been there, done that. Same with my nutso steep road. And that was with BOTH feet pressing as hard as possible on the brake pedal. There's a reason I call them Anti Stop Brakes.
Yes, you can steer, and in my case, I had to steer into a snow bank to stop the car.
Granted, that was with 3 season tires, proper snow tires do improve the braking, but I'd still rather have a bit more lock up and let the tires claw for traction, and build up nice ramps of snow (or gravel) to stop the car.
I've never been happier than when my ABS computer died in my A6.
Having said all of this, I live in Vermont, I've been driving in snow since I was 14 years old (38 now) and consider myself above average at car control, especially in snow. I LOVE going out to play in the snow, the deeper the better. I practice it, I crave it.
Your average joe might not feel the same as I do, I'm merely relaying MY personal feelings on the matter. =)
12-08-2009, 12:52 PM
#19
Well that's all good and great, and I don't disagree with it.. I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that I don't like it (ABS that is).. I don't have ESP. I think it's great. But I've had some really bad experiences with ABS, which is why I don't like it all that well.
12-08-2009, 01:53 PM
#20
I think there is a key thing that people are missing. There are generations of ABS/ESP. All improving over time. The improvement isn't in the mechanics, it's in the brain (computer) where the processing power and stored algorithms have got better and better. Comparing any system apart from the latest released vehicles isn't really a good comparison. The older systems especially were rudimentary and coarse in application. As an example, traction control on old BMWs was done through a cable actuated throttle butterfly control. Now, the throttle is fly-by wire and allows much finer control through the electronics. I think that on the BMW M series cars, BMW even relax the ESP settings slightly.
If you're playing in snow, then ABS might have a weakness in that it may increase the stopping distance. In general, it's been accepted that the tradeoff on distance is worth it for the control aspect.
Stability systems have the edge over the driver in all conditions. Until we grow 3 extra legs and/or work out a control interface to work each wheel braking individually, it will remain so. We also just aren't as good as a computer at processing the data coming in through the seat of the pants - no matter how much we all think we can :-)
Remember, stability control isn't really there to help you when you're in control - it's when you're out of control that it's really meant to cut in and help. We can all be the best driver in the world and get caught out. For me, on the public roads, ESP remains on. I'd switch it off on a track though.
Each to their own.
Cheers,
John.
If you're playing in snow, then ABS might have a weakness in that it may increase the stopping distance. In general, it's been accepted that the tradeoff on distance is worth it for the control aspect.
Stability systems have the edge over the driver in all conditions. Until we grow 3 extra legs and/or work out a control interface to work each wheel braking individually, it will remain so. We also just aren't as good as a computer at processing the data coming in through the seat of the pants - no matter how much we all think we can :-)
Remember, stability control isn't really there to help you when you're in control - it's when you're out of control that it's really meant to cut in and help. We can all be the best driver in the world and get caught out. For me, on the public roads, ESP remains on. I'd switch it off on a track though.
Each to their own.
Cheers,
John.