Anyone else not a big fan of traction / stability control?
12-08-2009, 01:56 PM
#21
I am for ESP and especially ABS. Is is more fun for me when some un-trained driver coming down a steep ice-covered hill (there are lots of them in the Northeast this time of year) does not careen across the median into me. I am willing to sacrifice some personal "fun" on public roads to make sure the car manufacturers in general equip their cars for the "average Joe" driver so they won't kill me. I can take my need for fun to an autocross or such if I want to. FWIW my 2 cents
12-08-2009, 02:40 PM
#22
I'll agree that stability control alone is a great safety feature, without hesitation. Same for ABS in most cases (except mine obviously, LOL!)..
BUT, I think back to the original points, it would be nice to be able to turn them off when one wants to have fun, without the car taking offense to it.
BUT, I think back to the original points, it would be nice to be able to turn them off when one wants to have fun, without the car taking offense to it.
12-08-2009, 03:25 PM
#23
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Interesting thread... Generally a bmw/porsche owner, I'm back to audi after a long hiatus. My first audi (MY00) didn't have ESP, and while I never crashed it, I went through a few half-spins. My e39 & e46 bmw's had DSC, it worked, especially with snow tires, but was tuned too aggressively. You could come out of a toll plaza and it would cut acceleration on expansion joints, or on a manhole cover.
The porsche PSM is tuned far better, the car's back comes out a decent foot (or so it feels) before the violence kicks in. The e90 bmw had a nice version too. Rarely kicked in dry/wet (unless you're being an idiot), but also had an intermediate DTC mode that allowed some slip. Essential for snow. In fact my e90 rwd bmw did a couple of winter trip on winter performance tires (dunlop 3d's) that would do subaru/audi owners proud. Abandoned interstate with 8-10" unplowed. I was driving slightly sideways for nearly the last 100 miles of the trip. Good times, but also tiring and I did not get stuck, nor did I spin solely due to how well DTC was tuned. I would have liked to have seen such a mode on the a4. Only once, the e90 ESP system seemed to be buggy and either didn't catch a spin (on wet, bumpy pavement with rock hard runflat tires) or actually caused the spin by misreacting. I was being an idiot, but after many years of no surprise trusty handling from my bmw's, I had found my and the system's limit. Fortunately no curbs were involved and I was back on track after a scary tankslapper.
Now my new a4 has almost 3k miles, only on dry/wet and ESP has NEVER kicked in. Sure it has been break-in period, but on a RWD car, this thing kicked in (even on the e90) on a regular basis, ok slightly less on the better traction cayman, but it certainly kicked in in the first few thousand miles of driving. I might be slightly slower/older/wiser, but I think I drive the a4 almost as fast at times. It just goes to show that ESP is far more essential to RWD.
Snow/ice is a different of course. I'm curious to see how this generation of audi compares, this time I have michelin pilot alpin's. Can't wait to play in the snow.
The porsche PSM is tuned far better, the car's back comes out a decent foot (or so it feels) before the violence kicks in. The e90 bmw had a nice version too. Rarely kicked in dry/wet (unless you're being an idiot), but also had an intermediate DTC mode that allowed some slip. Essential for snow. In fact my e90 rwd bmw did a couple of winter trip on winter performance tires (dunlop 3d's) that would do subaru/audi owners proud. Abandoned interstate with 8-10" unplowed. I was driving slightly sideways for nearly the last 100 miles of the trip. Good times, but also tiring and I did not get stuck, nor did I spin solely due to how well DTC was tuned. I would have liked to have seen such a mode on the a4. Only once, the e90 ESP system seemed to be buggy and either didn't catch a spin (on wet, bumpy pavement with rock hard runflat tires) or actually caused the spin by misreacting. I was being an idiot, but after many years of no surprise trusty handling from my bmw's, I had found my and the system's limit. Fortunately no curbs were involved and I was back on track after a scary tankslapper.
Now my new a4 has almost 3k miles, only on dry/wet and ESP has NEVER kicked in. Sure it has been break-in period, but on a RWD car, this thing kicked in (even on the e90) on a regular basis, ok slightly less on the better traction cayman, but it certainly kicked in in the first few thousand miles of driving. I might be slightly slower/older/wiser, but I think I drive the a4 almost as fast at times. It just goes to show that ESP is far more essential to RWD.
Snow/ice is a different of course. I'm curious to see how this generation of audi compares, this time I have michelin pilot alpin's. Can't wait to play in the snow.
12-08-2009, 04:14 PM
#24
Your E39 and e46 were both mechanical throttle closing - very harsh. Now it's fly-by-wire, it's much better and controlled. I had an old Z3 and if you really gunned it, as soon as the wheels broke loose, the power was violently chopped - slinging you forward into the seatbelt as if you'd hit the brakes! The Z4 moved to electronic control and was much, much better at not being quite so violent on the power chop.
RWD does see more stability control action - both under power and under braking. I remember coming down a series of hairpins (in the UK) and being hard on the brakes on worn tires. All the back end of the Z3 wanted to do was to swap ends with the front. After much grinding (yes, that what ESP/DSC sounds like doing it's job) the back end snapped back into line.
The new A4 is well balanced to start with. AWD brings neutral handling under power - you've really got to be pushing it to get the stability control working under normal conditions. It's quite easy on a chipped 2.0T to get the traction control blipping in!
Cheers,
John.
RWD does see more stability control action - both under power and under braking. I remember coming down a series of hairpins (in the UK) and being hard on the brakes on worn tires. All the back end of the Z3 wanted to do was to swap ends with the front. After much grinding (yes, that what ESP/DSC sounds like doing it's job) the back end snapped back into line.
The new A4 is well balanced to start with. AWD brings neutral handling under power - you've really got to be pushing it to get the stability control working under normal conditions. It's quite easy on a chipped 2.0T to get the traction control blipping in!
Cheers,
John.
12-08-2009, 05:37 PM
#25
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I'll agree that stability control alone is a great safety feature, without hesitation. Same for ABS in most cases (except mine obviously, LOL!)..
BUT, I think back to the original points, it would be nice to be able to turn them off when one wants to have fun, without the car taking offense to it.
BUT, I think back to the original points, it would be nice to be able to turn them off when one wants to have fun, without the car taking offense to it.
As for stability control, yes, they've got their place and are great on icy conditions and the highway but for nice little roads, I'm sorry but they kill the fun.. at least I can disable that. I'd like to be able to disable ABS the same way.
12-08-2009, 05:55 PM
#26
You are correct, locking the wheels (by slamming on the brakes) is not correct, not smart; but, the problem for many folks is being unable to properly modulate the pressure to slow the wheels "just to" the point of locking.
Another perspective, pre ABS brakes we were often taught to "pump" the brakes in an effort to be able to retain control of the car's directionality.
This pumping action had, typically, the desired effect -- press, release, press, release and make sure the release was before a full 360 or even 180 spin overtook the road surface's coefficient of friction.
The "pre ABS" method, then, was to attempt to manually imitate what ABS does with surgical precision, 10, 12, 15 and now even more times PER SECOND. Of course, few folks can even pump the brakes 5 times per second, and those that can, are unable to modulate from full on to full off.
Moreover, with multi channel ABS, it is possible for each wheel to be braked (modulated) in response to individual tire traction differences. With four channel ABS, two wheels on ice, two on dry pavement? No problem. ABS figures out which wheels need ABS assistance and which don't. One brake pedal, one foot -- even with brake modulation assist (not ABS), the results are poor when compared with four channel ABS+Brake Assist (and, of course quattro.)
It is virtually, if not literally, impossible for "us" (we mere mortals) to out act, react and respond, when we are pitted against ABS+brake assist, ESP, torque vectoring (or, if you like SH-AWD), especially if it is on a vehicle that has rear biased AWD and decent F/R weight distribution (and the A4 has, finally, moved to "decent" weight distribution.)
I will concede a fun factor that can be had when these nannies are turned off -- but, thank god these things are, or soon will be, standard (2012, I think) across the board.
But, that fun factor also applies to manual transmissions, and, well, we've seen how popular sticks are.
The nannies are here to stay -- and speaking of someone who had to sit and sit and sit on greater Cincinnati Interstate highways yesterday, I wish everyone drove an AWD ABS and ESP equipped vehicle. Although, I must admit it is fun to watch people throw their cars away.
Another perspective, pre ABS brakes we were often taught to "pump" the brakes in an effort to be able to retain control of the car's directionality.
This pumping action had, typically, the desired effect -- press, release, press, release and make sure the release was before a full 360 or even 180 spin overtook the road surface's coefficient of friction.
The "pre ABS" method, then, was to attempt to manually imitate what ABS does with surgical precision, 10, 12, 15 and now even more times PER SECOND. Of course, few folks can even pump the brakes 5 times per second, and those that can, are unable to modulate from full on to full off.
Moreover, with multi channel ABS, it is possible for each wheel to be braked (modulated) in response to individual tire traction differences. With four channel ABS, two wheels on ice, two on dry pavement? No problem. ABS figures out which wheels need ABS assistance and which don't. One brake pedal, one foot -- even with brake modulation assist (not ABS), the results are poor when compared with four channel ABS+Brake Assist (and, of course quattro.)
It is virtually, if not literally, impossible for "us" (we mere mortals) to out act, react and respond, when we are pitted against ABS+brake assist, ESP, torque vectoring (or, if you like SH-AWD), especially if it is on a vehicle that has rear biased AWD and decent F/R weight distribution (and the A4 has, finally, moved to "decent" weight distribution.)
I will concede a fun factor that can be had when these nannies are turned off -- but, thank god these things are, or soon will be, standard (2012, I think) across the board.
But, that fun factor also applies to manual transmissions, and, well, we've seen how popular sticks are.
The nannies are here to stay -- and speaking of someone who had to sit and sit and sit on greater Cincinnati Interstate highways yesterday, I wish everyone drove an AWD ABS and ESP equipped vehicle. Although, I must admit it is fun to watch people throw their cars away.
12-08-2009, 06:04 PM
#27
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Before putting all these nanny features they should begin by ensuring that drivers are trained properly. I don't know about the US but here in canada driver training is pretty much a joke. I'd rather have something like Germany..
12-08-2009, 07:43 PM
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Your E39 and e46 were both mechanical throttle closing - very harsh. Now it's fly-by-wire, it's much better and controlled. I had an old Z3 and if you really gunned it, as soon as the wheels broke loose, the power was violently chopped - slinging you forward into the seatbelt as if you'd hit the brakes! The Z4 moved to electronic control and was much, much better at not being quite so violent on the power chop.
