What's the deal with the weak engines?
08-31-2007, 04:00 AM
#61
? The 328i is BMWs lowest line of 3-series here and competes with the 2.0t...
BMW cars have always been a tiny bit more expensive than Audi in the US. They have a better reputation here but to say the 328i competes with the 3.2 A4 is not making sense to me.
The 328i sedan is 32 grand
The 335i sedan is 38 grand.
The B7 (much less B8) A4 2.0t quattro is 32 grand
The B7 A4 3.2 is 38 grand.
So sure, and Audi 3.2 driver could look over at a 335i driver and say, "Your car isnt a direct competitor to mine." but that driver would smile and shake his head knowing he paid the same amount as the 3.2 driver.
This assumes all vehilces with no options, delivery fees or taxes and the Audis with only quattro (which you have to pick as it would be odd to compare a FWD audi to a RWD bmw since who wants a FWD performance sedan?)
And as it has always been, the M3 has always been about 5 grand more than the S4 and will continue to be. It can also compete with the new S5. The M3 CSL will then compete with the RS4 and RS5.
I can see why we wouldnt like that. Currently the 335i toasts even the S4 in acceleration tests (last I saw it do 0-60 in 4.8 and the quarter in 13.4 at 105mph and trap speeds dont lie). I only write this because IMO Audi needs to reduce weight (which they appear to be doing) and add some power to their lineup.
The 328i sedan is 32 grand
The 335i sedan is 38 grand.
The B7 (much less B8) A4 2.0t quattro is 32 grand
The B7 A4 3.2 is 38 grand.
So sure, and Audi 3.2 driver could look over at a 335i driver and say, "Your car isnt a direct competitor to mine." but that driver would smile and shake his head knowing he paid the same amount as the 3.2 driver.
This assumes all vehilces with no options, delivery fees or taxes and the Audis with only quattro (which you have to pick as it would be odd to compare a FWD audi to a RWD bmw since who wants a FWD performance sedan?)
And as it has always been, the M3 has always been about 5 grand more than the S4 and will continue to be. It can also compete with the new S5. The M3 CSL will then compete with the RS4 and RS5.
I can see why we wouldnt like that. Currently the 335i toasts even the S4 in acceleration tests (last I saw it do 0-60 in 4.8 and the quarter in 13.4 at 105mph and trap speeds dont lie). I only write this because IMO Audi needs to reduce weight (which they appear to be doing) and add some power to their lineup.
08-31-2007, 10:41 AM
#62
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It seems that odd justifications for inadequecies are in LARGE supply.
Audi engines:
2.0t I-4; 3.2 V6; 4.2V8 (S4); 4.2V8 (RS4)
BMW engines:
3.0 I6; 3.0tt I6; 4.whatever V8.
And so you want to tell me that the 2.0t is actually down-range from the na 3.0 BMW motor? And that the S cars, eventhough they're 10k more expensive than the 335 are direct competitors? Well, then by your own arguement, BMW has handily won. More power, less price.
As a consumer, THAT's the comparison I'm going to make. Doesn't matter who/what/why/where the marketing department "facts" are. (and when was the last time marketing used facts?). When I cross shop, I'm compraing engines at price ranges.
Of course they compared the S5 vs 335, the old S 4.2 was meant to compete against the e46 M engine and now it gets squashed.
Look, I have no vested interest in any of this, and really don't care. But, price per price, the 3.2 has to compete with the 335 for buyers. That's how I see it as the guy writing the check, regardless of how much anybody argues differently.
2.0t I-4; 3.2 V6; 4.2V8 (S4); 4.2V8 (RS4)
BMW engines:
3.0 I6; 3.0tt I6; 4.whatever V8.
And so you want to tell me that the 2.0t is actually down-range from the na 3.0 BMW motor? And that the S cars, eventhough they're 10k more expensive than the 335 are direct competitors? Well, then by your own arguement, BMW has handily won. More power, less price.
As a consumer, THAT's the comparison I'm going to make. Doesn't matter who/what/why/where the marketing department "facts" are. (and when was the last time marketing used facts?). When I cross shop, I'm compraing engines at price ranges.
Of course they compared the S5 vs 335, the old S 4.2 was meant to compete against the e46 M engine and now it gets squashed.
Look, I have no vested interest in any of this, and really don't care. But, price per price, the 3.2 has to compete with the 335 for buyers. That's how I see it as the guy writing the check, regardless of how much anybody argues differently.
08-31-2007, 02:54 PM
#64
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Dude, you're taking this crap waaay too seriously.
Look at the thread. I'd say that there are strong points from both sides of the fence on this argument. I see plenty of posters on this very thread that seem to agree with me. So I'm not alone.
Nothing is perfect. But by looking at your posts it seems that Audi can do no wrong. I may be a little guilty of stirring the pot, But you seem to be a little guilty of being a fan boy:-)
Nothing is perfect. But by looking at your posts it seems that Audi can do no wrong. I may be a little guilty of stirring the pot, But you seem to be a little guilty of being a fan boy:-)
08-31-2007, 03:18 PM
#66
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Re: Well in that case, the Manufacturer Claims of the Audi will be more conservative too.
Apples to oranges? Even though the new A4 hasn't been tested, only a fool would suggest that the new A4 will be as fast as the 335i IMO. Especially when that assumption is based solely on the fact that the new a4 hasn't been tested yet.
The information that Audi has released in regards to the new A4 (Hp,torque,Weight,transmission type) is enough for anyone to determine that the A4 will be significantly slower than the 335. This isn't rocket science. Unless Audi is going to do something crazy with the transmission gear ratios and final-drive gear ratios, the A4 will be slower. I haven't heard anything out of the ordinary about the New A4's transmission. Better to accept reality now than to be disappointed later.
The TDI? I'm not too big on diesels but I do love the low-end torque and fuel mileage. I love revs and diesels don't rev enough imo. Maybe the TDI is different, I'll be sure to find out. Later
The information that Audi has released in regards to the new A4 (Hp,torque,Weight,transmission type) is enough for anyone to determine that the A4 will be significantly slower than the 335. This isn't rocket science. Unless Audi is going to do something crazy with the transmission gear ratios and final-drive gear ratios, the A4 will be slower. I haven't heard anything out of the ordinary about the New A4's transmission. Better to accept reality now than to be disappointed later.
The TDI? I'm not too big on diesels but I do love the low-end torque and fuel mileage. I love revs and diesels don't rev enough imo. Maybe the TDI is different, I'll be sure to find out. Later
08-31-2007, 03:58 PM
#67
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
You know what it really is?
When I consider a car for purchase, I look to see if there is anything that makes it special.
The A4 is a special vehicle indeed (interior, craftsmanship, Etc...), but its engine isn't special at all IMO. The 335's, IS350's, and even the G37's engine is special IMO. All of those engines, puts out significantly more power than the A4's engine, while getting equal (if not better) fuel mileage. Why couldn't Audi put something similar in the new A4? Believe me, they will eventually.
When it comes down to it I ask myself; Is the A4's lack of a sexy engine enough to put it in the same class and price range of the cars mentioned above? The answer is yes. Because the A4's refinement, interior, and build quality are at a slightly higher standard than the 335, I think it evens everything out with the BMW (almost). Compared to the other cars mentioned above? Even with the A4's power disadvantage, it has big advantages in other areas (already mentioned) that tip the scales heavily in the A4's favor IMO.
I recently had a 335 (loaner vehicle) and found myself not needing all that power. It was nice having all that power for sure, but I would gladly accept less power for a nicer interior. But then I say to myself "Why can't I have both?" Well... There's always the S4, But the S4 will cost much more than the 335, and I'm not sure if the S4's slightly better craftsmanship and much nicer interior is enough to justify the price premium. Look at it this way; if the new S4 is only just as fast as the 335, and not faster, will it be worth $10k more than the 335? The answer is no IMO. I also look at things like fuel mileage, and if the new S4 gets the same gas-guzzling V8 as the S5, then the S4 even starts to look even less appealing IMO.
I could go on forever (thank god he isn't!
but I'll leave it at this. If the new A4 had the same power and performance as the IS350 (not even the 335), it would be the perfect car imo. I would be doing back flips, and walking around with a big grin on my face. As it stands now, I'm impressed, but not back-flipping impressed. The new A4 is about 55hp short of being the no-holds-barred best car in the class. Audi is so close its killing me.
The A4 is a special vehicle indeed (interior, craftsmanship, Etc...), but its engine isn't special at all IMO. The 335's, IS350's, and even the G37's engine is special IMO. All of those engines, puts out significantly more power than the A4's engine, while getting equal (if not better) fuel mileage. Why couldn't Audi put something similar in the new A4? Believe me, they will eventually.
When it comes down to it I ask myself; Is the A4's lack of a sexy engine enough to put it in the same class and price range of the cars mentioned above? The answer is yes. Because the A4's refinement, interior, and build quality are at a slightly higher standard than the 335, I think it evens everything out with the BMW (almost). Compared to the other cars mentioned above? Even with the A4's power disadvantage, it has big advantages in other areas (already mentioned) that tip the scales heavily in the A4's favor IMO.
I recently had a 335 (loaner vehicle) and found myself not needing all that power. It was nice having all that power for sure, but I would gladly accept less power for a nicer interior. But then I say to myself "Why can't I have both?" Well... There's always the S4, But the S4 will cost much more than the 335, and I'm not sure if the S4's slightly better craftsmanship and much nicer interior is enough to justify the price premium. Look at it this way; if the new S4 is only just as fast as the 335, and not faster, will it be worth $10k more than the 335? The answer is no IMO. I also look at things like fuel mileage, and if the new S4 gets the same gas-guzzling V8 as the S5, then the S4 even starts to look even less appealing IMO.
I could go on forever (thank god he isn't!
but I'll leave it at this. If the new A4 had the same power and performance as the IS350 (not even the 335), it would be the perfect car imo. I would be doing back flips, and walking around with a big grin on my face. As it stands now, I'm impressed, but not back-flipping impressed. The new A4 is about 55hp short of being the no-holds-barred best car in the class. Audi is so close its killing me.
08-31-2007, 04:21 PM
#68
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Ahh! The "lemon" interior. Nice indeed.
When the 3 series is equipped with the NAV system it makes the interior look much nicer. I'm still considering the 335xi and that's the only interior config (Nav) that I would get.
The problem I have with the E90's interior is that the gauges are drab and the rest of the interior is illuminated in orange. I mean everything! Some other colors would be nice, and if it weren't for the NAV display breaking up the sea of orange, the E90's interior would be unlivable IMO. I say that because I recently had a 335(non-nav) for a day. I grew tired of the interior after about 4 drives. I'm really not into the minimalist Spartan interiors and that appears to be the direction that BMW is headed. BMW calls it removing clutter, but instead you get more acres of plain, unused, plastic panels. I'll gladly take purposeful panels with illuminated buttons any day.
The problem I have with the E90's interior is that the gauges are drab and the rest of the interior is illuminated in orange. I mean everything! Some other colors would be nice, and if it weren't for the NAV display breaking up the sea of orange, the E90's interior would be unlivable IMO. I say that because I recently had a 335(non-nav) for a day. I grew tired of the interior after about 4 drives. I'm really not into the minimalist Spartan interiors and that appears to be the direction that BMW is headed. BMW calls it removing clutter, but instead you get more acres of plain, unused, plastic panels. I'll gladly take purposeful panels with illuminated buttons any day.
08-31-2007, 04:45 PM
#69
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The point is, you said the 335i is "not far ahead of the A4 3.2" which is just a load of crap.
The 3.2 is a dog. The S4 has a decent power to weight ratio and the 335i, even in stock form, eats it's lunch.
A simple chip and exhaust barely even qualifies as "modded" and it already makes the car more capable than Audi's B-series "halo" model.
A simple chip and exhaust barely even qualifies as "modded" and it already makes the car more capable than Audi's B-series "halo" model.