2.7T Tip Owners - Legit Trans Upgrades
06-20-2013, 11:15 AM
#1
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2.7T Tip Owners - Legit Trans Upgrades
Hi guys -
I know in general, people say don't do a Stg 3 with a Tip, they say just swap out your Tip with a 6-spd. So that sounds great on paper, but when you look into the process of swapping a Tip with a 6-spd, it's a LARGE project, and not all that well documented. Obviously the Bentley Manual isn't going to cover it, and the few posts out there make it sound pretty involved. It's also not as cheap as you might think... People have figured out those transmissions are worth something, and you'll generally need to do a Stg 3 clutch upgrade which isn't cheap.
But I'm in an interesting situation where my Tip might go out before I'm ready to make a decision on Stg 3. So I really don't want to go to all the work or pay someone $1000's to swap in a 6-spd if I'm not 100% sure I'm going to drop the cash and/or time on a Stg 3 package.
On the flip-side, the majority of the transmission rebuild price is in the labor, so I'm back to considering a "standard" Tip rebuild vs a "performance" rebuild. If it's less than $1K more to do a "performance" rebuild over stock, then that's not so bad. I've done a ton of reading on automatic tranny rebuilds over the years, and done properly, they can significantly extend the life of the tranny under high(er) load applications. So I guess I'm saying I don't buy the "ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A TIP HANDLE THE POWER" theory. I think it's impossible to build a 450hp car with a Tip, track it and drag it twice a month, and expect it to last 100K. But I don't expect a whole host of parts in this car to last long if that's the way you drive it (which I don't).
I've swapped emails with 517 Trans over the years, and they seems like great guys, but the geographic distance between NY and Portland make it impractical. If I have any issues, I'm on the hook for taking the transmission back out and shipping it (twice) across the country. That's not cheap, nor really practical.
If I get the rebuild done locally by a show that I've worked with and trust, they'll warranty the work, and even after the warranty, there's no shipping costs for them to repair it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FWD TO HERE FOR THE ACTUAL QUESTION :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So my question is - I'm assuming 517 doesn't fabricate their own parts... I'm assuming they're buying a kit (like the Level 10 kit), then (very skillfully) installing the upgraded parts, adjusting the valve-body, etc.
Do you think it would be possible (and wise) to order the L10 upgrade "kit", have L10 upgrade my valve-body, then have my transmission guy actually do the rebuild? If I pay him to do it, I'm pretty sure he's fix anything that broke under warranty, and if it was the valve-body that broke, he'd give me a really reasonable rate to take it out and ship it back to L10.
Thoughts?
I know in general, people say don't do a Stg 3 with a Tip, they say just swap out your Tip with a 6-spd. So that sounds great on paper, but when you look into the process of swapping a Tip with a 6-spd, it's a LARGE project, and not all that well documented. Obviously the Bentley Manual isn't going to cover it, and the few posts out there make it sound pretty involved. It's also not as cheap as you might think... People have figured out those transmissions are worth something, and you'll generally need to do a Stg 3 clutch upgrade which isn't cheap.
But I'm in an interesting situation where my Tip might go out before I'm ready to make a decision on Stg 3. So I really don't want to go to all the work or pay someone $1000's to swap in a 6-spd if I'm not 100% sure I'm going to drop the cash and/or time on a Stg 3 package.
On the flip-side, the majority of the transmission rebuild price is in the labor, so I'm back to considering a "standard" Tip rebuild vs a "performance" rebuild. If it's less than $1K more to do a "performance" rebuild over stock, then that's not so bad. I've done a ton of reading on automatic tranny rebuilds over the years, and done properly, they can significantly extend the life of the tranny under high(er) load applications. So I guess I'm saying I don't buy the "ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A TIP HANDLE THE POWER" theory. I think it's impossible to build a 450hp car with a Tip, track it and drag it twice a month, and expect it to last 100K. But I don't expect a whole host of parts in this car to last long if that's the way you drive it (which I don't).
I've swapped emails with 517 Trans over the years, and they seems like great guys, but the geographic distance between NY and Portland make it impractical. If I have any issues, I'm on the hook for taking the transmission back out and shipping it (twice) across the country. That's not cheap, nor really practical.
If I get the rebuild done locally by a show that I've worked with and trust, they'll warranty the work, and even after the warranty, there's no shipping costs for them to repair it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FWD TO HERE FOR THE ACTUAL QUESTION :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So my question is - I'm assuming 517 doesn't fabricate their own parts... I'm assuming they're buying a kit (like the Level 10 kit), then (very skillfully) installing the upgraded parts, adjusting the valve-body, etc.
Do you think it would be possible (and wise) to order the L10 upgrade "kit", have L10 upgrade my valve-body, then have my transmission guy actually do the rebuild? If I pay him to do it, I'm pretty sure he's fix anything that broke under warranty, and if it was the valve-body that broke, he'd give me a really reasonable rate to take it out and ship it back to L10.
Thoughts?
06-21-2013, 04:08 AM
#2
Hi guys -
I know in general, people say don't do a Stg 3 with a Tip, they say just swap out your Tip with a 6-spd. So that sounds great on paper, but when you look into the process of swapping a Tip with a 6-spd, it's a LARGE project, and not all that well documented. Obviously the Bentley Manual isn't going to cover it, and the few posts out there make it sound pretty involved. It's also not as cheap as you might think... People have figured out those transmissions are worth something, and you'll generally need to do a Stg 3 clutch upgrade which isn't cheap.
But I'm in an interesting situation where my Tip might go out before I'm ready to make a decision on Stg 3. So I really don't want to go to all the work or pay someone $1000's to swap in a 6-spd if I'm not 100% sure I'm going to drop the cash and/or time on a Stg 3 package.
On the flip-side, the majority of the transmission rebuild price is in the labor, so I'm back to considering a "standard" Tip rebuild vs a "performance" rebuild. If it's less than $1K more to do a "performance" rebuild over stock, then that's not so bad. I've done a ton of reading on automatic tranny rebuilds over the years, and done properly, they can significantly extend the life of the tranny under high(er) load applications. So I guess I'm saying I don't buy the "ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A TIP HANDLE THE POWER" theory. I think it's impossible to build a 450hp car with a Tip, track it and drag it twice a month, and expect it to last 100K. But I don't expect a whole host of parts in this car to last long if that's the way you drive it (which I don't).
I've swapped emails with 517 Trans over the years, and they seems like great guys, but the geographic distance between NY and Portland make it impractical. If I have any issues, I'm on the hook for taking the transmission back out and shipping it (twice) across the country. That's not cheap, nor really practical.
If I get the rebuild done locally by a show that I've worked with and trust, they'll warranty the work, and even after the warranty, there's no shipping costs for them to repair it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FWD TO HERE FOR THE ACTUAL QUESTION :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So my question is - I'm assuming 517 doesn't fabricate their own parts... I'm assuming they're buying a kit (like the Level 10 kit), then (very skillfully) installing the upgraded parts, adjusting the valve-body, etc.
Do you think it would be possible (and wise) to order the L10 upgrade "kit", have L10 upgrade my valve-body, then have my transmission guy actually do the rebuild? If I pay him to do it, I'm pretty sure he's fix anything that broke under warranty, and if it was the valve-body that broke, he'd give me a really reasonable rate to take it out and ship it back to L10.
Thoughts?
I know in general, people say don't do a Stg 3 with a Tip, they say just swap out your Tip with a 6-spd. So that sounds great on paper, but when you look into the process of swapping a Tip with a 6-spd, it's a LARGE project, and not all that well documented. Obviously the Bentley Manual isn't going to cover it, and the few posts out there make it sound pretty involved. It's also not as cheap as you might think... People have figured out those transmissions are worth something, and you'll generally need to do a Stg 3 clutch upgrade which isn't cheap.
But I'm in an interesting situation where my Tip might go out before I'm ready to make a decision on Stg 3. So I really don't want to go to all the work or pay someone $1000's to swap in a 6-spd if I'm not 100% sure I'm going to drop the cash and/or time on a Stg 3 package.
On the flip-side, the majority of the transmission rebuild price is in the labor, so I'm back to considering a "standard" Tip rebuild vs a "performance" rebuild. If it's less than $1K more to do a "performance" rebuild over stock, then that's not so bad. I've done a ton of reading on automatic tranny rebuilds over the years, and done properly, they can significantly extend the life of the tranny under high(er) load applications. So I guess I'm saying I don't buy the "ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A TIP HANDLE THE POWER" theory. I think it's impossible to build a 450hp car with a Tip, track it and drag it twice a month, and expect it to last 100K. But I don't expect a whole host of parts in this car to last long if that's the way you drive it (which I don't).
I've swapped emails with 517 Trans over the years, and they seems like great guys, but the geographic distance between NY and Portland make it impractical. If I have any issues, I'm on the hook for taking the transmission back out and shipping it (twice) across the country. That's not cheap, nor really practical.
If I get the rebuild done locally by a show that I've worked with and trust, they'll warranty the work, and even after the warranty, there's no shipping costs for them to repair it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FWD TO HERE FOR THE ACTUAL QUESTION :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So my question is - I'm assuming 517 doesn't fabricate their own parts... I'm assuming they're buying a kit (like the Level 10 kit), then (very skillfully) installing the upgraded parts, adjusting the valve-body, etc.
Do you think it would be possible (and wise) to order the L10 upgrade "kit", have L10 upgrade my valve-body, then have my transmission guy actually do the rebuild? If I pay him to do it, I'm pretty sure he's fix anything that broke under warranty, and if it was the valve-body that broke, he'd give me a really reasonable rate to take it out and ship it back to L10.
Thoughts?
I am no expert, but this is basically what I've been told over the last year or so. I've also even considered rebuilding a spare tranny myself with the L10 kit. Does no extra good if it's simply stock.
Sam at 517 says their rebuilt trans is much stronger than stock and I asked him about a kit. He said they don't offer it in kit for because of technical issues.
Therefore, I'm simply upgrading the TC and VB to 517's as part of my stage 3 upgrade in the next month or so.
06-21-2013, 05:29 AM
#3
AudiWorld Super User
I've been dealing with these same questions for the past year now. I decided to go stage 3 and I almost have all my parts ready. I talked to Sam at 517 and he said for this level of power (on a stock but well running tip) the valve body upgrade and torque converter upgrade will be fine to handle 450 hp. I was also told that the level ten kit (the tranny upgrade kit) is just the same as stock. It's the supporting components (TC, VB) that make it "bulletproof".
I am no expert, but this is basically what I've been told over the last year or so. I've also even considered rebuilding a spare tranny myself with the L10 kit. Does no extra good if it's simply stock.
Sam at 517 says their rebuilt trans is much stronger than stock and I asked him about a kit. He said they don't offer it in kit for because of technical issues.
Therefore, I'm simply upgrading the TC and VB to 517's as part of my stage 3 upgrade in the next month or so.
I am no expert, but this is basically what I've been told over the last year or so. I've also even considered rebuilding a spare tranny myself with the L10 kit. Does no extra good if it's simply stock.
Sam at 517 says their rebuilt trans is much stronger than stock and I asked him about a kit. He said they don't offer it in kit for because of technical issues.
Therefore, I'm simply upgrading the TC and VB to 517's as part of my stage 3 upgrade in the next month or so.
What turbos are you using for stage 3? K04 from RS4 or RS6, or frankenturbos?
06-21-2013, 08:29 AM
#4
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting... So if you go with a full "rebuilt" transmission through 517, is he saying that they also use OE clutches? I guess that makes sense being that you probably can't increase the size much, and automatic trans clutches are not designed to "slip" at all. If fact, I've been told that once they do slip a few times, the surface is scorched an will continue to slip even more.
So I could have my transmission shop do the rebuild (pay for the highest quality rebuild parts the offer), then drop $1,250 for the new TC and VB from 517.
Did Sam at 517 say it's better to have your own TC and VB rebuilt (if possible) versus using their "core exchange" program? Since I'm at 110K and haven't really had many issues, I'd like to have own gear rebuilt as opposed to getting someone else old rebuilt stuff. Has anyone else heard if that really matters for TCs and VBs?
So I could have my transmission shop do the rebuild (pay for the highest quality rebuild parts the offer), then drop $1,250 for the new TC and VB from 517.
Did Sam at 517 say it's better to have your own TC and VB rebuilt (if possible) versus using their "core exchange" program? Since I'm at 110K and haven't really had many issues, I'd like to have own gear rebuilt as opposed to getting someone else old rebuilt stuff. Has anyone else heard if that really matters for TCs and VBs?
06-21-2013, 07:06 PM
#6
I am using k04's from the RS4. I've been told that the rs6 turbos, because they are even larger, tend to have worse lag. With an auto, I don't want to push much more than about 20 psi to redline. I'm hoping that will give me a somewhat reliable 400-450 at the crank.
Actually, Sam told me that their beefed up tranny will hold in excess of 550 hp. He said my stock tranny, if it's still in good shape and with the upgraded VB and TC will have no problems with 400-450. I will have confidence in his experience. I didn't ask about rebuilding my TC or VB or swapping. I think no matter what, you are going to get a rebuilt one. I am sending my cores to him after I get the "rebuilt" one's installed.
I also just acquired a giac tip chip, but Sam said with the upgraded VB, the tcu will be pointless. It will all be done from within the VB now.
Again about the turbos....I opted for the K04 RS4 because I want to keep the tip and don't want to get to high of boost. The frankenturbos (I've been told) are on par with the rs6 K04's but with a little less lag. This is all fine, but not if you aren't going to be boosting to the turbo's max output.
If I ever go to a 6 speed, then I will go all out. I would do some tial turbos, full lower build, performance clutch, etc.
If I blow this tip right away, that might end up being an option. If I do that I am going to build a 600-700 hp monster. At that point I will have to purchase another daily driver for my wife and this will be a "toy". I have the money to do this, but not until something breaks to the point where it doesn't make sense to do it any other way.
Actually, Sam told me that their beefed up tranny will hold in excess of 550 hp. He said my stock tranny, if it's still in good shape and with the upgraded VB and TC will have no problems with 400-450. I will have confidence in his experience. I didn't ask about rebuilding my TC or VB or swapping. I think no matter what, you are going to get a rebuilt one. I am sending my cores to him after I get the "rebuilt" one's installed.
I also just acquired a giac tip chip, but Sam said with the upgraded VB, the tcu will be pointless. It will all be done from within the VB now.
Again about the turbos....I opted for the K04 RS4 because I want to keep the tip and don't want to get to high of boost. The frankenturbos (I've been told) are on par with the rs6 K04's but with a little less lag. This is all fine, but not if you aren't going to be boosting to the turbo's max output.
If I ever go to a 6 speed, then I will go all out. I would do some tial turbos, full lower build, performance clutch, etc.
If I blow this tip right away, that might end up being an option. If I do that I am going to build a 600-700 hp monster. At that point I will have to purchase another daily driver for my wife and this will be a "toy". I have the money to do this, but not until something breaks to the point where it doesn't make sense to do it any other way.
06-21-2013, 07:13 PM
#7
I know it "can" be done because of my brothers 450-500hp s4 with 60k on a level 10 tranny. I just don't know if I'll get that lucky as well. Only time (and money) will tell. Believe me...this forum will be the first to know!
Trending Topics
06-25-2013, 08:11 AM
#8
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if Sam's not using after-market clutches, did he say what the difference was between just replacing the TC and VB versus his full rebuild? 450hp vs 550hp is a big jump when you consider the % increase over stock HP.
Possibly it's just the increased clutch pressure on "fresh" clutches have more adhesion than older ones?
Possibly it's just the increased clutch pressure on "fresh" clutches have more adhesion than older ones?
06-25-2013, 08:58 AM
#9
AudiWorld Member
You know...
There are enough examples now of the Tip to 6spd conversion out there that if your going to put additional $$$ into the car, you really ought to consider doing the swap.
OR
Buy a another car with blown 2.7t and the 6spd and move your motor over to it.
Just saying, if your gonna do stage 3, you might as well do it right and run with a proven drivetrain instead of taking the risk with a known weak point in the Tip....
There are enough examples now of the Tip to 6spd conversion out there that if your going to put additional $$$ into the car, you really ought to consider doing the swap.
OR
Buy a another car with blown 2.7t and the 6spd and move your motor over to it.
Just saying, if your gonna do stage 3, you might as well do it right and run with a proven drivetrain instead of taking the risk with a known weak point in the Tip....
06-25-2013, 09:08 AM
#10
So if Sam's not using after-market clutches, did he say what the difference was between just replacing the TC and VB versus his full rebuild? 450hp vs 550hp is a big jump when you consider the % increase over stock HP.
Possibly it's just the increased clutch pressure on "fresh" clutches have more adhesion than older ones?
Possibly it's just the increased clutch pressure on "fresh" clutches have more adhesion than older ones?
bigger snap rings pump upgrades ... that we can not ship as a kit form."