A6 versus Infinity M35X
02-10-2005, 07:15 AM
#31
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Totally agree.
Quattro is no better (except in snow)in a street car than RWD. It's just different.
That was my whole point. I can't find any real world 'data' (not anecdotes) that supports the argument that quattro offers performance or safety advantages in anything but snow.
I'm going to search for the old article I referenced at the outset that tested the A4 QTR against the 3 Series RWD in various weather conditions, and post it for comment if I can find it.
That was my whole point. I can't find any real world 'data' (not anecdotes) that supports the argument that quattro offers performance or safety advantages in anything but snow.
I'm going to search for the old article I referenced at the outset that tested the A4 QTR against the 3 Series RWD in various weather conditions, and post it for comment if I can find it.
02-10-2005, 07:26 AM
#33
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Stay on point here people
I'm not saying that it doesn't have advantages in a properly prepped car driven at the limit on the track. Understand? Go back and re-read that sentence if it hasn't sunk it.
What I'm saying is in a street sedan like an A4 or an A6, the value of Quattro is oversold, in terms of both performance and safety vs. a RWD car like a BMW 3 or 5 series. If it's not, how come PROFESSIONAL drivers who test these cars for magazines like R&T or C&D are able to get better performance in testing out of the RWD cars? That's all I'm asking and, again, I'm referencing numerous comparison tests read over the years as well as a cross-test that I read a number of years ago that tried to prove the value of Quattro and concluded that the Audi Quattro system offered meaningful performance benefits only in the snow, period.
I keep getting responses about track situations in race cars or tricked out bling A6s or anecdotes about driving fast in the rain on roundabouts, all of which mean almost nothing relative to the stock A4/A6s we buy off of the showroom floor. If Quattro is so valuable on the street, why doesn't it show up in the testing and why doesn't Audi prove it? My guess is because it has only marginal real value (aside from snow) and they don't want to do anything that would impact the positive marketing position it offers. From the looks of this forum, it appears to be working and they appear to have made a good decision.
Disclaimer: I love my Audi and have nothing negative to say about it. Okay, the understeer in normal street driving is a bit annoying, but I can live with it given all the other positives about this car.
What I'm saying is in a street sedan like an A4 or an A6, the value of Quattro is oversold, in terms of both performance and safety vs. a RWD car like a BMW 3 or 5 series. If it's not, how come PROFESSIONAL drivers who test these cars for magazines like R&T or C&D are able to get better performance in testing out of the RWD cars? That's all I'm asking and, again, I'm referencing numerous comparison tests read over the years as well as a cross-test that I read a number of years ago that tried to prove the value of Quattro and concluded that the Audi Quattro system offered meaningful performance benefits only in the snow, period.
I keep getting responses about track situations in race cars or tricked out bling A6s or anecdotes about driving fast in the rain on roundabouts, all of which mean almost nothing relative to the stock A4/A6s we buy off of the showroom floor. If Quattro is so valuable on the street, why doesn't it show up in the testing and why doesn't Audi prove it? My guess is because it has only marginal real value (aside from snow) and they don't want to do anything that would impact the positive marketing position it offers. From the looks of this forum, it appears to be working and they appear to have made a good decision.
Disclaimer: I love my Audi and have nothing negative to say about it. Okay, the understeer in normal street driving is a bit annoying, but I can live with it given all the other positives about this car.
02-10-2005, 07:30 AM
#34
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Re: Totally agree.
This whole tech article is pretty informative, especially the bit on slip angles. But read the section entitled "RWD versus 4WD."
If you find your article about the BMW versus the A4, fine, but that "data' is no more valid than my own experiences or those of other members here. It's not a cut and dried case of one is better than the other in all conditions. Even in dry conditions AWD can provide advantages over RWD. Snow and wet conditions just lower the tractive threshold. Thhe same basic physics exist in higher tractive conditions. We just don't experience them most of the time because we don't drive near the limit in those conditions.
We're not knocking RWD here, just pointing out that AW can provide some advantages over RWD. It also has it's deficiencies but IMHO, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. The original discussion centered around Audi not extolling these advantages more.
<a href="https://www.audiworld.com/news/00/geneva/quattro.shtml">Twenty years of Audi quattro</a>
<a href="https://www.audiworld.com/news/02/unfairadvantage/content2.shtml">Unfair Advantage</a><ul><li><a href="http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/handling/tech_handling_5.htm">Audizine Tech Article</a></li></ul>
If you find your article about the BMW versus the A4, fine, but that "data' is no more valid than my own experiences or those of other members here. It's not a cut and dried case of one is better than the other in all conditions. Even in dry conditions AWD can provide advantages over RWD. Snow and wet conditions just lower the tractive threshold. Thhe same basic physics exist in higher tractive conditions. We just don't experience them most of the time because we don't drive near the limit in those conditions.
We're not knocking RWD here, just pointing out that AW can provide some advantages over RWD. It also has it's deficiencies but IMHO, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. The original discussion centered around Audi not extolling these advantages more.
<a href="https://www.audiworld.com/news/00/geneva/quattro.shtml">Twenty years of Audi quattro</a>
<a href="https://www.audiworld.com/news/02/unfairadvantage/content2.shtml">Unfair Advantage</a><ul><li><a href="http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/handling/tech_handling_5.htm">Audizine Tech Article</a></li></ul>
02-10-2005, 07:32 AM
#35
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How about besting the RWD competition
in just one comparison test? How about producing some data that supports the marketing collateral stating how much 'greater' quattro is?
How difficult would it be for Audi to take a stock A4 3.0 and BMW 330 out to Sears or Willow in the rain with professional drivers and see which one laps the course quicker and with less drama. Run it through skidpad testing in dry and wet and through the cones as well.
Surely if the quattro system offers a meaningful advantage, it would show up?
What is interesting to me (given the fact that Quattro is really THE single biggest differentiator for Audi) is that Audi has never done this. They constantly refer to the racing prowess of Quattro and the results related thereto in their advertising, but as far as I can tell, they have never produced test data like I describe. Why would that be? You would think it would be very powerful data, wouldn't you? Unless of course, the data wouldn't support the marketing spiel...
How difficult would it be for Audi to take a stock A4 3.0 and BMW 330 out to Sears or Willow in the rain with professional drivers and see which one laps the course quicker and with less drama. Run it through skidpad testing in dry and wet and through the cones as well.
Surely if the quattro system offers a meaningful advantage, it would show up?
What is interesting to me (given the fact that Quattro is really THE single biggest differentiator for Audi) is that Audi has never done this. They constantly refer to the racing prowess of Quattro and the results related thereto in their advertising, but as far as I can tell, they have never produced test data like I describe. Why would that be? You would think it would be very powerful data, wouldn't you? Unless of course, the data wouldn't support the marketing spiel...
02-10-2005, 07:33 AM
#36
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There's not really much to say except, if you're not finding Quattro advantageous on the street,
then you're not really driving hard enough. Hop on an on-ramp and floor it. Have the conviction to stay on it even when you think there's not much more grip there. You'll be surprised.
And saying Quattro is only better in the snow? Does it not rain where you live?
And saying Quattro is only better in the snow? Does it not rain where you live?
02-10-2005, 07:37 AM
#37
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But that is not apples to apples. A better comparison would be to take a
3.0 A4 FWD and a 3.0 A4 Quattro out and see which wins.
The real problem with Audis and their understeer is poor weight balance, which could be markedly improved if Audi made the effort. But they don't :-(
Audi suspensions and brakes are getting better, but there is still a way to go. But that's why nobody who is serious about driving drives a stock Audi. :-) They *need* handling correction, a-la uprated rear sway bars, or what have you...
The real problem with Audis and their understeer is poor weight balance, which could be markedly improved if Audi made the effort. But they don't :-(
Audi suspensions and brakes are getting better, but there is still a way to go. But that's why nobody who is serious about driving drives a stock Audi. :-) They *need* handling correction, a-la uprated rear sway bars, or what have you...
02-10-2005, 07:39 AM
#38
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere
We're almost agreeing. Imagine that.
I don't disagree that there will be situations, likely in any conditions, where AWD will provide an advantage. The simply fact that you have 4 wheels under power will be an advantage in some situations. In others, it will either be neutral or the added weight might even cause it to be a net negative.
My simple point (READ: OPINION) is that, except for snow performance, there is no data to support that Quattro provides a material, significant, meaningful advantage over RWD in terms of safety or performance. And I think the value of such is way oversold by Audi, and is largely bought hook, line and sinker by their customers. It sounds good and seems logical, plus it feels good when you drive it. But the performance numbers don't indicate that there's really much to it in the real world.
That's all. I'll go away now and drop this. I can see that I'm a sinner preaching to the devout parishoners.
I don't disagree that there will be situations, likely in any conditions, where AWD will provide an advantage. The simply fact that you have 4 wheels under power will be an advantage in some situations. In others, it will either be neutral or the added weight might even cause it to be a net negative.
My simple point (READ: OPINION) is that, except for snow performance, there is no data to support that Quattro provides a material, significant, meaningful advantage over RWD in terms of safety or performance. And I think the value of such is way oversold by Audi, and is largely bought hook, line and sinker by their customers. It sounds good and seems logical, plus it feels good when you drive it. But the performance numbers don't indicate that there's really much to it in the real world.
That's all. I'll go away now and drop this. I can see that I'm a sinner preaching to the devout parishoners.
02-10-2005, 07:42 AM
#39
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Well, I agree, but I'll go one better
Test the A4 QTR against the BMW 330, but don't test them 'against' each other per se. Test the level of degradation in performance in each successively worsening condition (weather or cornering). This is what the test I referenced did.
If Quattro has material advantages, the performance of the Audi should not degrade as much as the RWD car as conditions worsen. In theory, the Quattro advantage would kick in and it would maintain more of it's capabilities, where the RWD car would drop off.
If Quattro has material advantages, the performance of the Audi should not degrade as much as the RWD car as conditions worsen. In theory, the Quattro advantage would kick in and it would maintain more of it's capabilities, where the RWD car would drop off.