A6 versus Infinity M35X
02-10-2005, 08:04 AM
#51
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No, I totally disagree
If, in order to achieve that additional grip and power to the ground, you add additional weight and/or create weight distribution that is disadvantageous - then the net result can be lower performance, i.e., lower corner speed.
Also, if you guys are all track experts you should know that exit speed on a corner isn't simply about putting power down exiting the turn. It's about entry speed and mid-corner speed as well.
If I have a car that can't enter the turn as fast because of a frontward weight bias, then my entry speed and likely mid-corner speed will be lower. Also, if my car is heavier, my ability to get more power to the ground on exit could be offset by the additional weight, resulting a no net benefit.
Also, if you guys are all track experts you should know that exit speed on a corner isn't simply about putting power down exiting the turn. It's about entry speed and mid-corner speed as well.
If I have a car that can't enter the turn as fast because of a frontward weight bias, then my entry speed and likely mid-corner speed will be lower. Also, if my car is heavier, my ability to get more power to the ground on exit could be offset by the additional weight, resulting a no net benefit.
02-10-2005, 08:06 AM
#52
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And it's applicable on the street
As another diversion and to not take away from AWD advantages -> We all know that AWD won't save you from stupid mistakes or make you immune to spins in low traction conditions. I stopped by the local Audi service bay yesterday and they had a TT on the lift that had spun in the wet. Mud everywhere and lot of broken parts. :-(
02-10-2005, 08:07 AM
#54
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Actually you are agreeing with me. Read it again.
My hypothetical involves EQUAL WEIGHT BALANCE.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/484939.phtml">CLICK - and give it a second to sink in before posting</a></li></ul>
02-10-2005, 08:18 AM
#56
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Again, that's why we drive AWD differently
than RWD. Entry speeds ARE different, apexes can be different and the braking and throttle-on points are different. But, because of several factors I am most often faster out of a turn than a similar RWD car. Part of it is that the AWD car is easier to handle at the limit so I can be at the limit consistently. But also because the RWD car can't get on the throttle as soon as I can. Sure he may have a higher entry speed but because he is afraid of his car at the limit, he will hold off on throttle application and he has to worry more about being smooth. It's easier for me to be smooth in a 4 wheel drift than it is for him to feel the rear end coming around. He's also distracted by thinking about when he is going to take his hand off the wheel and give me a pass signal. LOL!
02-10-2005, 08:52 AM
#57
It's the consistancy of performance, not a single sample point.
I have a larger margin for error with a good AWD system, than I might with only 2 driven wheels. That doesn't mean I should be taking it to the max all of the time, but it gives me a bit more headroom.
Sure, a 2wd car feels better in ideal situations, but I've got to pay that much more attention and be that much more skilled when I reach (the sometimes unexpected) limits.
Sure, a 2wd car feels better in ideal situations, but I've got to pay that much more attention and be that much more skilled when I reach (the sometimes unexpected) limits.
02-10-2005, 09:07 AM
#58
And the reason for that is the front differential which pushes the engine forward
Of course BMW's "solution" when offering awd is to run half shafts through the sump, limit suspension travel, and eliminate the sport package options since the car can't be lowered.
Same goes for Infiniti - no sport or aero package.
You've got both physical limitations and goal of producing a superior awd system. Something has to give.
Same goes for Infiniti - no sport or aero package.
You've got both physical limitations and goal of producing a superior awd system. Something has to give.
02-10-2005, 09:22 AM
#59
We did this at the Audi testing facility in Arizona. 740 and A8 side by side on sand.
We played all the variables in a launch. Traction control on in the 740 - the A8 was many lengths ahead. Traction control off - the A8 was still a length or two ahead. Front half of car on dry pavement with rear on sand - the A8 really took off. Front wheels on sand - the A8 got away faster with no squirm like the 740. One side of the car on sand and the other on dry pavement - we left the traction control on in the 740, fearing otherwise what migh happen - again, the A8 just ran away.
It really highlights that a good awd system is an enabling device, while traction control is a disabling device. Sure you don't usually use it to the same degree on a daily basis, but it's always there for when the expected and unexpected happen.
It really highlights that a good awd system is an enabling device, while traction control is a disabling device. Sure you don't usually use it to the same degree on a daily basis, but it's always there for when the expected and unexpected happen.
02-10-2005, 09:22 AM
#60
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Which confirms my opinion that while...
power oversteer is not necessarily a bad condition if you know what you are doing, most drivers (including many enthusiasts) have no clue what to do with it and feel like they are losing contol of their cars. In most cases, that means they slow way down as soon as they start to feel the rear end brake loose.
In contrast, an understeering car does not create this out of control feel. Throw in the fact that the four wheel drive allows the driver to exit the turn quicker and you have a car that most drivers can manipulate around a curve quicker and safer than a strictly front or rear wheel drive car.
When you throw in the inconsistency of rain or gravel, this disparity becomes even larger. And it extends to even some pretty experienced drivers (ask Ming 2.7t how he did on the track vs. cars that were faster than him when it was dry but couldn't keep up when it was wet).
For this reason "handling" cannot be talked about in an absolute manner, as it is a pretty subjective concept.
John in Cincy
In contrast, an understeering car does not create this out of control feel. Throw in the fact that the four wheel drive allows the driver to exit the turn quicker and you have a car that most drivers can manipulate around a curve quicker and safer than a strictly front or rear wheel drive car.
When you throw in the inconsistency of rain or gravel, this disparity becomes even larger. And it extends to even some pretty experienced drivers (ask Ming 2.7t how he did on the track vs. cars that were faster than him when it was dry but couldn't keep up when it was wet).
For this reason "handling" cannot be talked about in an absolute manner, as it is a pretty subjective concept.
John in Cincy