Car won't start - any thoughts?
06-09-2013, 07:52 PM
#21
AudiWorld Super User
06-09-2013, 08:04 PM
#22
AudiWorld Super User
oh and op has lost me ... perhaps a restatement of the problem may help.
that and you can have fuel pump run all day long. without an injector pulse those cylinders arent seeing gas..... food for thought.
that and you can have fuel pump run all day long. without an injector pulse those cylinders arent seeing gas..... food for thought.
06-10-2013, 07:29 PM
#23
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I'm not a mechanic, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I replaced a fuel pump on my 2002 A6 3.0L engine last year. I fought it for several weeks doing the same kind of testing that you are doing (except I never put 12 volts directly to the pump, until the very end). It would occasionally start and run, which made trouble shooting very difficult. In the process, I learned that the crankshaft position sensor has to give a good result before the ECU will give power to the fuel pump. So I replaced it. It ran fine until I turned off the car. Then it wouldn't run again. That confused the heck out of me. I took off the air intake tube and was able to run the car by supplying shots of starter fluid in the intake. That convinced me that there was a fuel supply problem. I ultimately replaced the fuel filter (that didn't fix it) and then finally the fuel pump. The latter fixed it for good.
Good luck.
Good luck.
06-11-2013, 10:32 AM
#24
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input guys. Just to try to clarify for JustMe, Airbag and anyone else -
The problem started after I started my and ran into my house. The car was running and when I came back out, it had turned off. So the car started fine and then stalled while I was in the house. After it stalled it would not start again. It would crank, but not start. After much cranking, yes the battery voltage dropped significantly.
I couldn't hear the fuel pump starting, so I pulled it out. I was getting voltage at the harness, approximating the battery voltage, when I cranked and then it would drop to 10V, which seems to fit specs at the harness - so I don't thin it's the relay.
I then tested continuity in the pumps wiring itself and it tested fine. I then took a 12V hobby battery and hooked it up to the pins on the pump for approx. 1 second and the pump (which was now out of the tank) spun up and fuel came out the top.
I put the pump all back together and still do not hear it spinning when the ignition is turned on - so I'm not sure what to think there. Maybe I am deaf?
After it was back together, I jumped the car and it started right up. I let the car run for a while, the battery charged a bit, and then I stopped it and tried to start again - and it wouldn't start.
I then disconnected the fuel line going to the rail. There are two, I disconnected the line that has the screw on connector that requires an open ended wrench to remove. Fuel sprayed out when I released the line, showing it was under pressure, but then when I started the car and cranked it, no fuel came out of the line at all. Bone dry. I am ASSUMING fuel should come out of this line while the car is cranking, as it connects to the fuel rail.
I took the battery to Advance Auto and had them charge it and check it, and it actually outperforms the specs on the battery, so it should be good.
I have the filter out of the car right now, but the new filter has a lip so I have to open the holder to get the lip past it, and the nut on the top of the screw to do this spins (it is a square nut and I believe it should be "seated" and not spinning, but the seat is broken or something) and I can't fit a wrench in there to hold it...so I am struggling to finish a 5 minute job and it has been raining buckets out for the past 2 days.
My theories here are this -
1. The fuel filter is clogged. I have 230,000 on the car and for all I know it's original. Fuel flow stopped, the battery drained, it sat for about 36 hours and fuel seeped through the filter, allowing for enough pressure to start the car. Once I stop the car, the pressure drop sealed the filter again. The fuel in the filter was pitch black when I dropped it out.
2. There is a fuel pressure issue, maybe with the evap system? Opening the tank relieved the pressure manually, allowing the car to start again when I put it back together and jumped the dead battery.
3. The fuel pump is bad and pulling it out of the car allowed it to spin and pump some fuel, but it can't create enough pressure to get the job done.
4. The CPS is faulty and the pump isn't spinning up because of this - however, I am getting voltage so that seems unpossible, and I don't have any codes other than SAI codes (I pulled the pump 2 weekends ago so that I can replace the bearings).
....I am going to try to finish up the filter tonight. I'll see where it goes. Thanks guys.
The problem started after I started my and ran into my house. The car was running and when I came back out, it had turned off. So the car started fine and then stalled while I was in the house. After it stalled it would not start again. It would crank, but not start. After much cranking, yes the battery voltage dropped significantly.
I couldn't hear the fuel pump starting, so I pulled it out. I was getting voltage at the harness, approximating the battery voltage, when I cranked and then it would drop to 10V, which seems to fit specs at the harness - so I don't thin it's the relay.
I then tested continuity in the pumps wiring itself and it tested fine. I then took a 12V hobby battery and hooked it up to the pins on the pump for approx. 1 second and the pump (which was now out of the tank) spun up and fuel came out the top.
I put the pump all back together and still do not hear it spinning when the ignition is turned on - so I'm not sure what to think there. Maybe I am deaf?
After it was back together, I jumped the car and it started right up. I let the car run for a while, the battery charged a bit, and then I stopped it and tried to start again - and it wouldn't start.
I then disconnected the fuel line going to the rail. There are two, I disconnected the line that has the screw on connector that requires an open ended wrench to remove. Fuel sprayed out when I released the line, showing it was under pressure, but then when I started the car and cranked it, no fuel came out of the line at all. Bone dry. I am ASSUMING fuel should come out of this line while the car is cranking, as it connects to the fuel rail.
I took the battery to Advance Auto and had them charge it and check it, and it actually outperforms the specs on the battery, so it should be good.
I have the filter out of the car right now, but the new filter has a lip so I have to open the holder to get the lip past it, and the nut on the top of the screw to do this spins (it is a square nut and I believe it should be "seated" and not spinning, but the seat is broken or something) and I can't fit a wrench in there to hold it...so I am struggling to finish a 5 minute job and it has been raining buckets out for the past 2 days.
My theories here are this -
1. The fuel filter is clogged. I have 230,000 on the car and for all I know it's original. Fuel flow stopped, the battery drained, it sat for about 36 hours and fuel seeped through the filter, allowing for enough pressure to start the car. Once I stop the car, the pressure drop sealed the filter again. The fuel in the filter was pitch black when I dropped it out.
2. There is a fuel pressure issue, maybe with the evap system? Opening the tank relieved the pressure manually, allowing the car to start again when I put it back together and jumped the dead battery.
3. The fuel pump is bad and pulling it out of the car allowed it to spin and pump some fuel, but it can't create enough pressure to get the job done.
4. The CPS is faulty and the pump isn't spinning up because of this - however, I am getting voltage so that seems unpossible, and I don't have any codes other than SAI codes (I pulled the pump 2 weekends ago so that I can replace the bearings).
....I am going to try to finish up the filter tonight. I'll see where it goes. Thanks guys.
06-12-2013, 05:32 PM
#25
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Just an update. I pulled the fuel filter out a few nights ago. I can't get the new one in because the clamp won't open - the bolt that holds the clamp closed has a square nut on the other end that just spins in place. It looks like the nut should be held in place by the bracket, but the plastic stripped out, so it spins and I can't open the clamp to put the new filter in. This is only really a problem because the new filter has a flange on the end that has to slide through the clamp - so I am going to go get an OEM filter with no flange tomorrow.
At any rate, while I had the filter out, I decided to fire up the car and see if anything came out - and I got nothing. This obviously is an issue, and the fact that I could not hear the pump spinning up when I started the car has been bothering me, even though it spun when I put the 12V battery to it directly.
I pulled it all apart again and put a battery to it while it was still in the tank - and nothing happened. I pulled it out and tried the battery again...nothing. I installed the new pump and cranked the car and I heard it spin up and fuel cam out of the hose that connects to the filter.
So, it is looking like the pump was dead after all and now I just have to get a filter into the car so I can start it up. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I am feeling very positive...
At any rate, while I had the filter out, I decided to fire up the car and see if anything came out - and I got nothing. This obviously is an issue, and the fact that I could not hear the pump spinning up when I started the car has been bothering me, even though it spun when I put the 12V battery to it directly.
I pulled it all apart again and put a battery to it while it was still in the tank - and nothing happened. I pulled it out and tried the battery again...nothing. I installed the new pump and cranked the car and I heard it spin up and fuel cam out of the hose that connects to the filter.
So, it is looking like the pump was dead after all and now I just have to get a filter into the car so I can start it up. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I am feeling very positive...
06-13-2013, 05:09 AM
#26
AudiWorld Super User
good job hang in there .. these cars can be a real bugger and i had similar issues with my filter as it is quite exposed to the elements.
I think you are on your way now .. BTW fuel pressure is between the pump and the injectors and has nothing to do with the tank .. you can get vapour lock osccasionally on some cars but with the evap and purge systems in place this is a very rare occurance, if not nonexistent on cars these days..
I think you are on your way now .. BTW fuel pressure is between the pump and the injectors and has nothing to do with the tank .. you can get vapour lock osccasionally on some cars but with the evap and purge systems in place this is a very rare occurance, if not nonexistent on cars these days..
06-18-2013, 09:00 AM
#27
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OK - so...I let the car charge up for a while and then shut it off...then tried to restart and it fired up. For about 2 seconds...then stalled. It just dies. Not really any puttering or anything...just a dead stall. Now it won't start again, even when I jump it.
I was thinking that maybe there is a fuel pressure issue? I was thinking maybe a valve or solenoid wasn't working properly, so when I opened the tank to check the fuel pump, I released pressure, and then the car could start again....but just a theory.
My battery is draining quickly...it is already down to around 10 volts. I disconnected the fuel line from the rail and gas sprayed everywhere. I put the hose in a container and tried cranking the car and no gas was coming out...I am assuming this is not normal and suggests no gas is getting to the engine?
I double checked for voltage at the plug for the pump and when the starter is turning it jumps to 10-12 volts (approx. battery voltage). I can't really hear it spinning up though...but when I pulled it out and put 12V directly too it it sprayed everywhere and spun up like a champ....
I am guessing the next step is to look between the pump and the engine...which leads me to the filter...but I can't imagine this would just suddenly go on me? And I am not sure how jumping it helped the one time...other than maybe it was sitting for a couple days and the fuel worked its way through somehow?
I haven't checked for spark, but I am assuming that since the car fired up again, I am getting spark...I could be wrong....it just seems more like a fuel issue but I don't have any real logic behind this other than what I've said above....
Strange....
I was thinking that maybe there is a fuel pressure issue? I was thinking maybe a valve or solenoid wasn't working properly, so when I opened the tank to check the fuel pump, I released pressure, and then the car could start again....but just a theory.
My battery is draining quickly...it is already down to around 10 volts. I disconnected the fuel line from the rail and gas sprayed everywhere. I put the hose in a container and tried cranking the car and no gas was coming out...I am assuming this is not normal and suggests no gas is getting to the engine?
I double checked for voltage at the plug for the pump and when the starter is turning it jumps to 10-12 volts (approx. battery voltage). I can't really hear it spinning up though...but when I pulled it out and put 12V directly too it it sprayed everywhere and spun up like a champ....
I am guessing the next step is to look between the pump and the engine...which leads me to the filter...but I can't imagine this would just suddenly go on me? And I am not sure how jumping it helped the one time...other than maybe it was sitting for a couple days and the fuel worked its way through somehow?
I haven't checked for spark, but I am assuming that since the car fired up again, I am getting spark...I could be wrong....it just seems more like a fuel issue but I don't have any real logic behind this other than what I've said above....
Strange....
So, based on what I've read and talking with my mechanic buddies, I think it might be a clogged fuel filter. A check of my service records shows no replacement since at least 1996!! But not 100% on that, maybe it was replaced during a routine dealer service, back before I was dumb enough to rely on them for my service.
Anyway, I've ordered fuel filter part #441201511C. And will try this first. Any thoughts from you guys? Is this a good starting point? I have yet to consult my Bentley, but I'm hoping this is an easy replacement.... true or false??
06-18-2013, 10:28 AM
#28
AudiWorld Super User
Anyway, I've ordered fuel filter part #441201511C. And will try this first. Any thoughts from you guys? Is this a good starting point? I have yet to consult my Bentley, but I'm hoping this is an easy replacement.... true or false??
Fuel pump is more like it, or any number of other things. Best to diagnose it well before throwing parts at it. Although you can't go wrong with replacing the fuel filter especially if you don't know if it was ever done.
06-18-2013, 10:35 AM
#29
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And your car is a 2001? That is quite an old filter indeed!
I strongly doubt it's your fuel filter. Unless you just ran the tank dry, and even then I still doubt it. Such problems rarely have been caused by a clogged filter.
Fuel pump is more like it, or any number of other things. Best to diagnose it well before throwing parts at it. Although you can't go wrong with replacing the fuel filter especially if you don't know if it was ever done.
I strongly doubt it's your fuel filter. Unless you just ran the tank dry, and even then I still doubt it. Such problems rarely have been caused by a clogged filter.
Fuel pump is more like it, or any number of other things. Best to diagnose it well before throwing parts at it. Although you can't go wrong with replacing the fuel filter especially if you don't know if it was ever done.
06-19-2013, 01:16 PM
#30
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Sorry for not getting back on this - it has been a busy week. I did get this cleared up.
I pulled the fuel filter and then had the issue of getting the new filter through the holder when the new filter had a flange on it, and the holder screw would not unscrew. I went to Audi and got the OEM filter which has no flange and had to gently tap it through the holder with a hammer.
While I was waiting for the OEM filter, I tried to turn the starter to see if gas came out of the supply line to the filter - and there was no fuel coming out. It was dry as a bone. I pulled the fuel pump a second time and applied 12V to it again - this time it did not spin up at all. It was dead as could be.
I replaced the pump, cranked the car and fuel came shooting out of the supply line to the filter. I put the filter all back together and cranked it for a few seconds and it fired right up.
If I had spent more time testing the pump, I would have probably found this. I just got unlucky when I applied 12V the first time because it spun and in an effort to keep gas from going everywhere I shut it right off. So, even a dead pump may spin for a few seconds here and there.
The filter I had probably was original and had 230,000 miles on it, so it was probably about time. It may have been a contributing factor to the pump going too...I don't know....but the pump seems to have been the end solution.
I pulled the fuel filter and then had the issue of getting the new filter through the holder when the new filter had a flange on it, and the holder screw would not unscrew. I went to Audi and got the OEM filter which has no flange and had to gently tap it through the holder with a hammer.
While I was waiting for the OEM filter, I tried to turn the starter to see if gas came out of the supply line to the filter - and there was no fuel coming out. It was dry as a bone. I pulled the fuel pump a second time and applied 12V to it again - this time it did not spin up at all. It was dead as could be.
I replaced the pump, cranked the car and fuel came shooting out of the supply line to the filter. I put the filter all back together and cranked it for a few seconds and it fired right up.
If I had spent more time testing the pump, I would have probably found this. I just got unlucky when I applied 12V the first time because it spun and in an effort to keep gas from going everywhere I shut it right off. So, even a dead pump may spin for a few seconds here and there.
The filter I had probably was original and had 230,000 miles on it, so it was probably about time. It may have been a contributing factor to the pump going too...I don't know....but the pump seems to have been the end solution.