Does anyone here genuinely think the Avantissimo should have been produced?
01-06-2003, 10:34 AM
#11
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I would not compare any Audi with any Chrysler product!
What position do you refer to? The $100,000 wagon position? Perhaps this would work in Europe, but I don't believe it would in the U.S., not even 'just to make a statement'...like I believe the RS 6 is.
Unlike the RS 6 which has a limited market ($80k+ 'super sedan') in the U.S., I think a $100,000 techno-luxo-wagon has ZERO market in the U.S....except for those 4 people I mentioned in the opening post
The RS 6, IMO, is not meant to generate direct profits for Audi (in the U.S.)...I believe it is meant more to show the U.S. market that Audi makes fine high-powered sport sedans and yes, it can, compete with BMW. I believe the RS 6 is intended to drive up sales of "lesser" Audis.
Perhaps the Avantissimo could do the same thing, but I don't think so. I think it would sell sooo poorly (ie. 4) that it would make the American public think that Audi is a bizarre company that makes bizarre high-priced wagons (of which, despite the recent relative upturn, Americans are not overly fond of)...not the sporting image that I believe Audi is shooting for.
It would have been interesting though, to me at least.
Unlike the RS 6 which has a limited market ($80k+ 'super sedan') in the U.S., I think a $100,000 techno-luxo-wagon has ZERO market in the U.S....except for those 4 people I mentioned in the opening post
The RS 6, IMO, is not meant to generate direct profits for Audi (in the U.S.)...I believe it is meant more to show the U.S. market that Audi makes fine high-powered sport sedans and yes, it can, compete with BMW. I believe the RS 6 is intended to drive up sales of "lesser" Audis.
Perhaps the Avantissimo could do the same thing, but I don't think so. I think it would sell sooo poorly (ie. 4) that it would make the American public think that Audi is a bizarre company that makes bizarre high-priced wagons (of which, despite the recent relative upturn, Americans are not overly fond of)...not the sporting image that I believe Audi is shooting for.
It would have been interesting though, to me at least.
01-06-2003, 11:32 AM
#13
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I understand your Opinions. Avantissimo wld fill one "niche" position in the market
But other niche positions (e.g., RSR supersportscar, RS8, A8 Coupe, Sportscross, etc.) wld have to be filled concurrently... otherwise yes, your concern about Audi being a bizarre carmaker that is better known for its station wagons than even Volkswagon may become reality. Already with all these S6 Wagons on the roads ...
Such product decisions cannot be done in isolation. Filling these various niche positions can help level up market perception of the entire Audi brand as a sporting luxury brand. The Avantissimo is a bona fide sporting luxury wagon. Look at the high-end niche products that Mercedes has been creating and their impact on the brand image. Even VW has used the Phaeton for brand enhancement reasons as well as to hit MB for going downmarket on VW. Nobody expected much of the Phaeton, but look at what it has achieved (and contrary to some, I don't think it will dissapear).
Audi management has the flexibility to produce limited run niche products. Audi will be investing about $11 billion over the next 5 years, with about 70% to be used to produce new/revised car products..
Given Potomac's point below, I doubt that only 4 Avantissimos would be sold. It could become the Chrysler PT Wagon for the Rich and Famous. If we had an "A10" forum on Audiworld, we could have some better opinions on whether this might happen. In its absence, good market research will provide some indications, but even market research is sometimes flawed, given by the number of failed presidential candidates every four years.
BTW, what if you heard that BMW plans to build a minivan? What would that do to its image?
Such product decisions cannot be done in isolation. Filling these various niche positions can help level up market perception of the entire Audi brand as a sporting luxury brand. The Avantissimo is a bona fide sporting luxury wagon. Look at the high-end niche products that Mercedes has been creating and their impact on the brand image. Even VW has used the Phaeton for brand enhancement reasons as well as to hit MB for going downmarket on VW. Nobody expected much of the Phaeton, but look at what it has achieved (and contrary to some, I don't think it will dissapear).
Audi management has the flexibility to produce limited run niche products. Audi will be investing about $11 billion over the next 5 years, with about 70% to be used to produce new/revised car products..
Given Potomac's point below, I doubt that only 4 Avantissimos would be sold. It could become the Chrysler PT Wagon for the Rich and Famous. If we had an "A10" forum on Audiworld, we could have some better opinions on whether this might happen. In its absence, good market research will provide some indications, but even market research is sometimes flawed, given by the number of failed presidential candidates every four years.
BTW, what if you heard that BMW plans to build a minivan? What would that do to its image?
01-06-2003, 11:32 AM
#14
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it would have been in a niche by itself...
...which could have been either costly or profitable. Think about it: there are no full-size wagons anymore, are there? Maybe the full-size-luxury-SUV-driving masses would have seen the light and switched to more sensible full-size vehicles, and the Avantissimo could have led the way in a full-size wagon revolution!
Or maybe not
Or maybe not
01-06-2003, 11:34 AM
#15
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Spare me Mr. Knowitall. Read my reply to your flame....
...so everyone knows.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/217267.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/217267.phtml</a</li></ul>
01-06-2003, 11:43 AM
#16
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It's Conehead Day! Is Avantissimo being a "dead horse" another opinion of yours?
What facts do you have to prove that the Avantissimo will definitely not be produced?
If you have spewed another useless opinion from your fragile eggshelled head remember this: Everybody has an Opinion, just like everyone has an A$$hole.
Don't waste my time with your unsubstantiated cracked-up opinions and incredulous claims. And if you don't care, you shouldn't be on this thread in the first place. And don't whine about me flaming you three days ago -- look in the mirror and then re-read your imbecilic original post titled "Another not so interesting interview with Dr. Martin Winterkorn" with its unsubstantiated opinions and provocative comments. You begged for it, so you got what you deserved.
You obviously have serious ego issues that you need to take care of first. Designworks, GM, Chrysler and Honda must have been really happy having you do work for them, because you sound so very very much like a car designer they want working in their studios! A real car designer would have your personality. Yeah,right.
Of course, any Conehead can claim to work in an auto design studio. I haven't seen you post anything that is more illuminating than say, what 2Tonic Tim, Potomac or Finman post routinely. Why don't you tell me your real name, actual auto design company/studio you work at and the "cars" you have actually designed so I can be more impressed with your incredible claims? As for your knowledge (what have you really shown us so far?)... self-praise is NO praise.
Since you claimed to be an auto designer for Honda, did you help to create this Honda concept? If so, how did you do it from start to finish?
<img src="http://www.auto.t-online.de/AU/DE/de/static_html/Specials/tdw/kw2003_01_detroit/images/b_13.jpg">
Most humanoids have egg-shaped heads, but on your head the cone is on top, Mr. Conehead. I'm not going to waste my time on you anymore or even bother responding to your useless and provocative posts, other than reposting this same message. Even though I can squash you like a bug whenever I want to. Checking your account number and recent appearance, whose alter ego are you really? In checking your other posts since you appeared recently, why am I not surprised that you have already tried to inflame and stir things up on other threads?
If you have spewed another useless opinion from your fragile eggshelled head remember this: Everybody has an Opinion, just like everyone has an A$$hole.
Don't waste my time with your unsubstantiated cracked-up opinions and incredulous claims. And if you don't care, you shouldn't be on this thread in the first place. And don't whine about me flaming you three days ago -- look in the mirror and then re-read your imbecilic original post titled "Another not so interesting interview with Dr. Martin Winterkorn" with its unsubstantiated opinions and provocative comments. You begged for it, so you got what you deserved.
You obviously have serious ego issues that you need to take care of first. Designworks, GM, Chrysler and Honda must have been really happy having you do work for them, because you sound so very very much like a car designer they want working in their studios! A real car designer would have your personality. Yeah,right.
Of course, any Conehead can claim to work in an auto design studio. I haven't seen you post anything that is more illuminating than say, what 2Tonic Tim, Potomac or Finman post routinely. Why don't you tell me your real name, actual auto design company/studio you work at and the "cars" you have actually designed so I can be more impressed with your incredible claims? As for your knowledge (what have you really shown us so far?)... self-praise is NO praise.
Since you claimed to be an auto designer for Honda, did you help to create this Honda concept? If so, how did you do it from start to finish?
<img src="http://www.auto.t-online.de/AU/DE/de/static_html/Specials/tdw/kw2003_01_detroit/images/b_13.jpg">
Most humanoids have egg-shaped heads, but on your head the cone is on top, Mr. Conehead. I'm not going to waste my time on you anymore or even bother responding to your useless and provocative posts, other than reposting this same message. Even though I can squash you like a bug whenever I want to. Checking your account number and recent appearance, whose alter ego are you really? In checking your other posts since you appeared recently, why am I not surprised that you have already tried to inflame and stir things up on other threads?
01-06-2003, 11:47 AM
#17
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Not trying to beat a dead horse...just that I've read several people recently...
commenting on how they wish the Avantissimo became a production car. I'm just surprised that anyone would genuinely think it would be worthwhile. I saw it purely as a concept and perhaps a hint at future styling and some gadget introduction...not as ever a serious production car.
You are right, it doesn't "matter", but really none of this does.
You are right, it doesn't "matter", but really none of this does.
01-06-2003, 12:13 PM
#19
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I know the peaple who run the VW/AUDI studio, among others....
...I'm not anyones "alter-ego", but if you read my reply to you flaming me (URL supplied above) you might see that if anyone deserves to have an opinion regarding design and manufacturing, I do.
Loudmouth knowitalls like you can talk their **** but in the end its just talk. You can read as many car rags as you want; Ill just keep designing cars here in the studio. Thankfully, nobody lets an overzealous geek like you anywhere near an automotive design studio.
Keep trying to run me off this board, loser boy, you will lose what little respect you might have gained thusfar.
Loudmouth knowitalls like you can talk their **** but in the end its just talk. You can read as many car rags as you want; Ill just keep designing cars here in the studio. Thankfully, nobody lets an overzealous geek like you anywhere near an automotive design studio.
Keep trying to run me off this board, loser boy, you will lose what little respect you might have gained thusfar.
01-06-2003, 12:22 PM
#20
Chrysler (Pacifica) is in another price realm, but is trying to rationalize...
... the insanity that is making people buy SUVs.
99% of SUV buyers have no intention of off-roading, yet their vehicles are --to varying extents-- designed to go offroad. Inevitably, this undermines on-road performance, space utilization and economy. STUPID! People buy SUVs because they want the space of a minivan without the zero-testosterone-coefficient of a minivan.
Hence the Pacifica. Of course, if it gets tagged as a minivan or station wagon, it's dead meat.
99% of SUV buyers have no intention of off-roading, yet their vehicles are --to varying extents-- designed to go offroad. Inevitably, this undermines on-road performance, space utilization and economy. STUPID! People buy SUVs because they want the space of a minivan without the zero-testosterone-coefficient of a minivan.
Hence the Pacifica. Of course, if it gets tagged as a minivan or station wagon, it's dead meat.