boostbuddy

I'm in a tight spot and I could use some experienced advice for fellow C5 2.7T owners.

Background - My car is at a shop and I have been told by the shop that I have water in one or more of my cylinders after having the t-stat housing replaced and system pressure tested (long, painful story). I'm guessing busted head gasket(s). I have an extended service contract with Interstate that is (suppposedly) all inclusive with no deductible.

The repair shop works on Euro cars but is FAR from an Audi specialist. Basically honest, but located in the sticks and they probably see one Audi a year if that.

The shop is telling me that they need to remove the engine to remove the cylinder head(s). They say that three sources (Alldata, etc.) tell them they need to remove the engine to remove the cylinder head(s) and that labor for removing engine is 26 hours.

Potential Problem - Shop is going to call Interstate telling them they need to remove engine to remove head(s) and that this will require 26 hours to remove and replace engine/head(s). If Interstate doesn't think engine needs to be removed, I could be on the hook for the hours less than 26 that Interstate won't cover and I'm potentially looking at paying LOTS of money to have a reapir done that supposedly should be covered under my contract (it's an all inclusive contract - everything except wera./tear is covered).

Question #1 - Does engine need to be removed to remove heads per published repair guidelines like Alldata?
Question #2 - Does engine need to be removed to remove heads if you know what you are doing?
Question #3 - Is 26 hours labor reasonable for R&R of engine/heads.

The 26 hours of labor is just to determine the problem(s), not fix them.

Thanks for your insights.

jseklund

First, the shop should not be using all-data. They need a Bentley for the car - and when I did this, I went to my bentley and saw:

Step 1 - Remove Engine

So, I skipped step 1.

I got both heads off of the engine I was working on and back on, and I've never done this before that.

It wasn't easy for me, and there were some tricks involved. It would be much easier with the engine out. But the work involved in pulling the engine isn't worth it, IMO - as long as you know what the problem is and that it's correctable. If you find you have an issue beyond the heads, you'll probably have to pull the engine at that point...but that's just pessimism.

Have the thing put into service position and start taking off all the top end "stuff" and you can do it. Pull the exhaust manifold with the head by unbolting the exhaust from the top of the turbo - which is 3 very stuck bolts most likely.

How do they know there is water in the cylinder? Are they saying water like you sucked something in through the intake? Or water like you have a leaking head gasket? Have they done a compression and/or leak down test? I would have those done before I pulled the head.

I think you could tear down, remove, and replace 1 head in under 20 hours of solid work if you don't pull the engine. Pulling the engine, which I've never done, may require 26 hours - but at that point getting everything apart and back together would probably take only 2-3 hours extra, IMO.

If you haven't had your timing belt done, and it's coming due, now may be a good time....

boostbuddy

Thanks for the quick reply. They did a pressure test of the coolant system and it wouldn't hold pressure. I'm assuming because water was being introduced into the cyclinder(s) through broken head gasket. They say they know there is water in the cylinder because they pulled a spark plug and could "see it". Not sure that would be possible, but that's what they said. As far as labor hours required, as long as the warranty company covers them I don't care how long it takes although I am a little worried that more things could be screwed up during a complete engine removal than just the head R&R.

My timing belt, water pump, t-stat, pulleys, etc were all done about 5k miles ago.

jseklund

A pressure test of the cooling system does not necessarily mean that you have a leaking head/head gasket. It could be a leak anywhere in the system, and they do occur on the audis.....

They need to do a compression test or leakdown test on the cylinders. Maybe they could see water, but that's no way to diagnose.

They need to get the water out of there too before they try to turn over the engine, or they could do major damage.

I hate to say something's not right - because it's easy not to trust a mechanic and I haven't even looked at the car yet...but pulling the head/engine seems like a big step without proper diagnosis first. Pulling the engine is not a part of diagnosing an engine problem.

Smeege

A little more background info would help, if you had the thermostat changed, was it overheating? I just finished a head replacement on a 1.8t last week, and it held good pressure in the cooling system with a cracked head. FWIW, I could see droplets of coolant in one cylinder when I looked through the spark plug hole with a scope, but this car had obvious signs of neglect, and was driven while VERY low on coolant.

Jseklund is right, a compression or leakdown test would make for a better diagnosis, and I also don't want to second guess anybody since I haven't seen the car. What symptoms do you have, misfire, smoke in exhaust, coolant disappearing?

4Driver4

Based on the scant info given:
Do a leak down test. If the car was overheated and has head gasket issues, replace engine with used.

johnkk

Your mechanic probably saw amazingly clean plug(s), which is a clear sign of coolant in the cylinder(s). You probably will also get clouds of white smoke at start up and rough idle until the coolant has vaporized in the cyinder(s). Either the gasket has failed(likely), the head has a crack(possible), or the block has a crack(less likely).

Huskerbob

I have read through the posts and would offer the following;

Why is the vehicle in the shop in the first place?

No you don't need to pull the engine to remove the heads. It's not easy but it's way easier than pulling the engine. I've done it.

I doubt that your mechanic could "see" water in a cylinder just by peering down a spark plug hole. Try it yourself. Unless they had a lighted scope or the cylinder was full of water they are guessing. I doubt you can even look down that rabbit hole and see anything but black.

Like johnkk posted the plugs would look new if they had been fogged during operation with steam. I bet they don't.

Have them pull all the plugs and crank the engine over and see if they actually get water out the spark plug holes. If it's in there it will push out the holes.

Pressure testing the cooling system that shows a loss does not necessarily indicate a bad head gasket. There are lots of other place for water to leak and a blown head is that least likely suspect. These head gaskets are 3 layer laminated and are super tough.

A cylinder leak down test would be a better indicator of a blown head gasket.

If you can find a different shop I would recommend that. If you can do the work yourself that's even better. Make them prove to you that you have water in the cylinder/s before you let them pull the engine or the heads.

Good luck

jseklund

I was just thinking more about this...and the other posts above are along the same lines...

What are you gonna do if they pull the head and say, "well that wasn't it" ...more likely they'll make up something else that went wrong and then just guessing at more things. In the meantime, your warranty coverage is going to fight paying more and more because of improper diagnosis.

Make them prove it and/or take it elsewhere..

Huskerbob

+1

I could not agree more! Make them prove it. They "see" water down a spark plug hole? You go try that. I'm a skeptic big time.