4Driver4

This is not about opinions. It's about doing the job right or doing it right enough so that the car will run with issues. Belts do wear a bet, but they don't stretch. However, you are changing the waterpump, the idler, the tensioner; all of these things can be minutely different.

You can achieve a workable result without the tools, no question. But you cannot set the timing without them. Setting the timing is a requirement of doing the job right. Go ahead and try to reason away the usefulness of the tools, but at the end of the day, you need them to do the job correctly.

You are also assuming that the old belt is on right. Is it? Is the key on the crank pulley a perfect fit, or has it moved? Did the last guy make a mistake.

Point being:
When I do a timing belt (and I've done a few - not just talkin' out my *** or speculating here) I KNOW that the job is done right. You do not.

...and how the heck do you change the cam seals without the tools?...or do you skip that easy and potentially important part of the job? Why?

JerzyBoy973

I get what you're saying. But you're wrong about the water pump pulley and idler affecting the relationship between the cam and crank gears. The number of teeth between any two points will never change with fluctuation in the size of those pulley's. You are very correct about the cam seals. The tool is needed for this, and even though it is wise and prudent to change them when doing the timing belt it is not absolutely necessary (some DIY'ers don't mind ripping down the car on the weekend to get back at them if a leak ever ocurs; myself included). No one is doubting the usefulness of the tool, or the reasoning behind what you are saying, but the fact remains that for pulling off the belt and replacing it, the tool is not absolutely required (we're not talking about setting or adjusting timing here).

4Driver4

You do understand that the cam sprockets are not keyed to the shafts, right?
The "number of teeth" is very important in timing belt jobs where the sprockets are keyed. Duplicating what was there when you started works great if the cams are keyed (and if the timing was right when you started).

When the sprockets are not keyed, the number of teeth is not relevant. Your logic is not working because you don't understand how this is designed. Do you think Audi wants you to free the sprockets for fun?

JerzyBoy973

If your gears spin freely of the cams while taking the belt off and replacing you have a problem - a major one. You're assuming that I don't know how they work; I'm telling you that if all else is working as it should and in proper order the tool isn't necessary. You'd know if your timing was off, it's an interference engine - timing means a lot, and when you're off - you're off.

For removing and replacing a TB; Finding TDC, making your marks, taking the belt off then replacing it is fine.

An optimal job would be to use the cam tool and crank pin, loosen the cams and do the seals... no ones debating that, at all. But what you fail to realize is that other methods work for their intended purposes (ie. removing a belt on a car w/ a good TB to swap a failed thermostat).

You're a very strict guy, I can tell. It's probably why you've been able to have your cars last you so long, and your attention to detail is to commended. However, there are many of us out there that are concerned with getting the job done right (not referring to a TB job, just removing the belt and replacing it). And by right I don't mean the optimal, if I have all the time and money in the world way; I mean the: It's gonna work, and work well way - without having to spend on tools and parts I don't need.

I know your answer is gonna be, "There's only one right way" and that's understandable, but there is something to be said for the ingenuity of the shade tree mechanic, who has one afternoon to get the job done with the tools at hand. Our cars are high tech but there are still some jobs that are just low tech wrenching (ie. removing and replacing a belt).

4Driver4

No, you need to loosen the sprockets so that they will spin freely. Otherwise it is pointless to use the tool.


This is exactly why I an suggesting that you do not understand how it works. You can guess, and you might be lucky enough to be close, but the tool is necessary to get it right.

Your timing has to be far off (around 20 degrees) before the interference becomes an issue. You can be at least ten degrees off without throwing a CEL. I'm not talking about way off, I'm talking about not quite right. Do you have any idea how much of an impact 10 degree off can have on drivability?

And don't tell me that most cars are right. That's not true. I always check timing prior to removing the old belt; most cars are off on at least one cam at least 5 degrees. You are speaking from ignorance. I am speaking from experience.

Why are you so against using the tool? A timing belt job is a lot of work. Why shortcut it and hope for a good outcome when you can do it right.

sheepers

OK, I'm convinced that I need the cam lock bar and crank lock pin, because this is the first time I work on an Audi. I may be able to borrow them locally, but I still do not have the crank seal puller and installer.

Are they absolutely needed for the job?

I read about the drill and screw trick to remove the seal, not sure how doable that is, as I don't know how the seal looks like.

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho...l+screw&page=2

Is this something I can try first, and then get the tool as plan B? Or it's going to be too late after I drilled some holes on the seal?

If I really do need the crank seal tools, my only option is to get the whole timing kit + rental from Blauparts and replace the other timing parts prematurely.

Con is .. It'll cost me about $330, when replacing the seal $15 + $50 timing belt is what I really want to do now.

The positive is .. I am not sure if the last timing belt change had the cam seals replaced. This may be a good time to replace them anyway.


On the same topic, how do I make sure the crank is not experiencing high pressure to cause the oil leak? Can I just pull the dip stick out , and let the pressue vent from the dip stick tube? When the engine is running, I didn't feel any gas coming out from the dipstick tube.

4Driver4

Definitely do the cam seals (4), the cam adjuster seals (2), and the cam plugs (2) as part of the job. Given the nature of the problem, I'd replace the suction pump and the green check valve too. I'd also consider replacing the crankcase breather that runs from the back of the engine to the front and across the coil packs to bank 1.

sheepers

I'm still waiting for the instruction that comes with the enhanced timing belt kit. The TB kit comes with

•2 Camshaft Seals (Improved 'Viton' Seal Material)

Question 1: Do I have to remove the valve cover to install them?

And looking at the vavle cover kit,
1. Improved Neoprene perimeter Audi valve cover gaskets - qty 2
2. Improved Neoprene center Audi valve cover gaskets - qty 2
3. Improved Audi cam tensioner gaskets - qty 2
4. Improved camshaft valley seals - qty 2
5. Improved front 'Viton' camshaft seals - qty 2
6. Improved rear 'Viton' camshaft seals - qty 2
7. Rear camshaft end cap seals

Question 2: Are the 2 cam seals in the timing belt kit the same as #5 in the valve cover kit?


Question 3: IF I install the valve cover kit at a later time, do I have to remove the front bumper and timing belt for #3 #4 #6 #7?

The timing belt kit will arrive this weekend, and I need to decide if I want to order the valve cover kit now and wait for it before I start working on the TB.

Thanks.

JerzyBoy973

Doing it all at once definitely makes life easier. If you're getting your kits from Blau Parts you'll have duplicates but it's not a big deal.

4Driver4

No. But it sure is a lot easier.


Yes.


I would strongly urge you not to do this. It is far easier to do the cam adjuster seals (#3) and the cam seals (#5,6) at the same time as the belt. In fact, the belt has to come off to get to 3 of the cam seals. So not only would you have to take the bumper off and put the nose in service position, but you'd basically have to redo part of the timing belt job.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the "enhanced" kit has only two cam seals in it. Further, I don't understand why the VCG kit has two front and two rear seals. On the car, there are 3 front seals and one rear seal. FWIW, I use an identical seal for all four.

Wait until you have all the parts. IMHO, a timing belt job is not complete without replacing all the seals. It is a major headache to attempt to replace them later. Do it once, do it right.