S6 Avant sales...RS 6 sales...
04-06-2002, 10:56 PM
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S6 Avant sales...RS 6 sales...
There have been a number of comments about the "poor" sales of the S6 Avant with some of this foundation based on the fact that a few have been seen on eBay. I have to say that this means nothing. There are many Audis, BMWs, and other cars that show up on eBay as brand new, being sold by the dealer. This does not mean they are selling poorly or selling at a deep discount. This is merely another strategy of advertising...and one that is incredibly inexpensive...a whopping $25 gets you an eBay ad for 7 days (aka an auction). Just because the initial price is, say $3-5k under the MSRP, that does not mean they will accept a bid that low. For example there is currently an S6 from a NJ dealer with an MSRP of $63+k with an opening base "bid" of $60k...but the "reserve" is not met...so the dealer is simply saying that he does not want to bother with the bids of $100 and such...that if you are not willing to part with 'more than $60k', don't bother.
I don't really give a crap if anyone sells S6s for big discounts...it doesn't mean anything to me...this S6 of ours will be around a very long time as the cool mommy-mobile and fun car for me to drive when She lets me...but it amazes me that people think, just because they see a few on eBay or one or two sitting on a lot somewhere, or because one person claims to have gotten it for $1500 over invoice, that this means the S6 is selling poorly.
Perhaps it is a unique situation, here in NorCal, but I have never seen more than one S6 in any dealership...but I did not see any in the 3 Audi dealers I visited in NY/NJ a couple months ago.
Additionally, I believe that with the upcoming RS 6, there will be some dealers (smaller) who may have had/have a couple S6s that may or may not sold slowly (2 months or so) that will not opt to carry the RS 6 for "fear" of not being able to sell it in their market...BUT I cannot understand the notion that these dealers are so afraid of flooring a $60-70-80k vehicle for weeks or a couple months...they all have numerous $40-50-60k cars that sit for many, many months. Why fear the 2 or 3 RS 6s that they will be allotted??? That equals 4 or 6 $40k cars...which, no doubt, they have had many more than that laying around unsold for longer periods of time...plus, when those $40k cars eventually sold, they only got them ~$1000-1500...not the $8-10k profit that the RS 6 will make them. Moreover, many of these dealerships that sell Audis, also sell other high-end cars (eg. Porsche) which often have many $50k-$100k cars that sit unsold for weeks and months. Why the "fear" of a couple RS 6s...I just don't get it.
At one dealership, here in NorCal, they have innumerable Porsches sitting around unsold for many weeks and months...Boxster and Boxster Ss with $6-8k off MSRP stickers on their windshields...and 911s C2s and C4s sitting unsold at MSRP or below. (Sorry, no 911 Turbos or GT2s
That is an awful lot of flooring costs right there! The same dealership has had no problem selling all of their 7 or 8, to date, S6 Avants at MSRP or ~$1k below. Does that mean the S6 is king and Porsche sales suck? No. It just means I can't understand the "fear of flooring" an expensive vehicle for a few weeks.
So, questions:
1. Has anyone ever seen 3 or more S6 Avants at one dealership, unsold?
2. Why is selling S6 Avants...or any other vehicle on eBay so bad?
3. Other than the one or two people who have stated they got theirs for ~$1500 over invoice...who else here has gotten there's for more than $2k off sticker (~$4.5k over invoice)?
4. What is the going price currently? (I paid $800 under MSRP, minus another $800 Audi Loyalty...and I'm happy with that)
Proclamations: (aka, my opinions and predictions)
1. The S6 Avant will settle out, over the next 6-9 months with an average sales price of ~$3500 over invoice...or about a $3k discount off MSRP...that is until the supplies and production of the '03 model start to dry up, then the price will approach MSRP again (ala, S4 and S4 Avant).
2. The RS 6 will initially sell to some, at prices of up to $10k over MSRP, but most will pay MSRP or close for the first 6 months or so.
3. Several months after the introduction of the RS 6, there WILL be RS 6s available, sitting unsold on various lots throughout the country. Some areas will have very few and be sold out, others will seem to not be able to "give" them away. This is no GT2 or Z8 (okay, I've seen a Z8 or two laying around unsold, actually)
4. 50% of those "on the list" for the RS 6 will bail by the time the car gets here...either because the mid-$70k+ sticker or because there will be something bigger, hotter, or faster on the horizon by some other make (eg. BMW M5, MB E55)
I am still planning on getting the RS 6...it will be one freaking bad-*** machine...and once I figure out what freaking country I will be living in next year, the wheels will be put into motion (well, they sort of are, already)...but right now, I don't need to be the first in line...this time I will pick it up mid-stream...that is unless something bigger, hotter, or faster comes along first
I don't really give a crap if anyone sells S6s for big discounts...it doesn't mean anything to me...this S6 of ours will be around a very long time as the cool mommy-mobile and fun car for me to drive when She lets me...but it amazes me that people think, just because they see a few on eBay or one or two sitting on a lot somewhere, or because one person claims to have gotten it for $1500 over invoice, that this means the S6 is selling poorly.
Perhaps it is a unique situation, here in NorCal, but I have never seen more than one S6 in any dealership...but I did not see any in the 3 Audi dealers I visited in NY/NJ a couple months ago.
Additionally, I believe that with the upcoming RS 6, there will be some dealers (smaller) who may have had/have a couple S6s that may or may not sold slowly (2 months or so) that will not opt to carry the RS 6 for "fear" of not being able to sell it in their market...BUT I cannot understand the notion that these dealers are so afraid of flooring a $60-70-80k vehicle for weeks or a couple months...they all have numerous $40-50-60k cars that sit for many, many months. Why fear the 2 or 3 RS 6s that they will be allotted??? That equals 4 or 6 $40k cars...which, no doubt, they have had many more than that laying around unsold for longer periods of time...plus, when those $40k cars eventually sold, they only got them ~$1000-1500...not the $8-10k profit that the RS 6 will make them. Moreover, many of these dealerships that sell Audis, also sell other high-end cars (eg. Porsche) which often have many $50k-$100k cars that sit unsold for weeks and months. Why the "fear" of a couple RS 6s...I just don't get it.
At one dealership, here in NorCal, they have innumerable Porsches sitting around unsold for many weeks and months...Boxster and Boxster Ss with $6-8k off MSRP stickers on their windshields...and 911s C2s and C4s sitting unsold at MSRP or below. (Sorry, no 911 Turbos or GT2s
That is an awful lot of flooring costs right there! The same dealership has had no problem selling all of their 7 or 8, to date, S6 Avants at MSRP or ~$1k below. Does that mean the S6 is king and Porsche sales suck? No. It just means I can't understand the "fear of flooring" an expensive vehicle for a few weeks.So, questions:
1. Has anyone ever seen 3 or more S6 Avants at one dealership, unsold?
2. Why is selling S6 Avants...or any other vehicle on eBay so bad?
3. Other than the one or two people who have stated they got theirs for ~$1500 over invoice...who else here has gotten there's for more than $2k off sticker (~$4.5k over invoice)?
4. What is the going price currently? (I paid $800 under MSRP, minus another $800 Audi Loyalty...and I'm happy with that)
Proclamations: (aka, my opinions and predictions)
1. The S6 Avant will settle out, over the next 6-9 months with an average sales price of ~$3500 over invoice...or about a $3k discount off MSRP...that is until the supplies and production of the '03 model start to dry up, then the price will approach MSRP again (ala, S4 and S4 Avant).
2. The RS 6 will initially sell to some, at prices of up to $10k over MSRP, but most will pay MSRP or close for the first 6 months or so.
3. Several months after the introduction of the RS 6, there WILL be RS 6s available, sitting unsold on various lots throughout the country. Some areas will have very few and be sold out, others will seem to not be able to "give" them away. This is no GT2 or Z8 (okay, I've seen a Z8 or two laying around unsold, actually)
4. 50% of those "on the list" for the RS 6 will bail by the time the car gets here...either because the mid-$70k+ sticker or because there will be something bigger, hotter, or faster on the horizon by some other make (eg. BMW M5, MB E55)
I am still planning on getting the RS 6...it will be one freaking bad-*** machine...and once I figure out what freaking country I will be living in next year, the wheels will be put into motion (well, they sort of are, already)...but right now, I don't need to be the first in line...this time I will pick it up mid-stream...that is unless something bigger, hotter, or faster comes along first
04-07-2002, 12:39 AM
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Re: S6 Avant sales...RS 6 sales...
I purchased my S6 from Princeton Audi in Princeton, NJ. I know that it was the first one they had available, and did not have it too long before i bought it. I have been looking at their website a lot since then, and i know that they now have a gray one that has been there for a while, but never multiple S6' available. I was down at my local dealership a couple weeks ago, Roth Audi of Erie, PA, and i saw that they had a black S6 on the showroom floor, but they were closed at the time so i didnt get to talk to anyone about it.
On the next issue, about price, i paid MSRP for mine, no markups or discounts.
I totally agree with you finman that selling new cars on ebay is perfectly alright, and there is no harm in doing it.
On the next issue, about price, i paid MSRP for mine, no markups or discounts.
I totally agree with you finman that selling new cars on ebay is perfectly alright, and there is no harm in doing it.
04-07-2002, 03:27 AM
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Re: S6 Avant sales...RS 6 sales...
New info, i just gfound a dealership in a place called Danver, MA, called Ira motorgroup, website: www.iramotorgroup.com/audi that has 3 S6' available.
Just wanted to let you know
Just wanted to let you know
04-07-2002, 07:41 AM
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Your last comment is very poignant...take note Audi of America!!
Audi needs to realize that there are buyers lined up NOW for this car, as it will undoubtedly be the most amazing thing out there, but waiting another year will leave the very possible scenario that something better will come along. Now that it is developed, now that it is in production, GET IT TO THE STATES before another company makes a better, faster, and more capable car, and you lose nearly all your sales...
TAKE NOTE AUDI OF AMERICA!!! You have the car, so bring it to the U.S. now - the longer you wait, the fewer customers you have because you will be splitting them with E55 and M5 customers, and possibly more...don't screw this up! Lead the release of the new class of ultra performance sedans - never follow!
TAKE NOTE AUDI OF AMERICA!!! You have the car, so bring it to the U.S. now - the longer you wait, the fewer customers you have because you will be splitting them with E55 and M5 customers, and possibly more...don't screw this up! Lead the release of the new class of ultra performance sedans - never follow!
04-07-2002, 08:43 AM
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NoCal is a little different then the rest of the US, most expensive place to live actually :)
rich people, expensive cars, etc...
But I also don't see a problem with marketing a car on ebay. And I agree, that high-end cars will probably sit around a little longer. Our Audi/Porsche dealer has had the same Porsche on the sales floor display for almost 4 months.
I just wish that they would take the S6 from the back of the lot (hidden), and put it on the showroom floor too
And as I'm thinking about it, the fact that the salesman told me that the S6's were not selling probably has a lot to do with the fact that they aren't, i.e. he's not sold on it - um...interesting
But I also don't see a problem with marketing a car on ebay. And I agree, that high-end cars will probably sit around a little longer. Our Audi/Porsche dealer has had the same Porsche on the sales floor display for almost 4 months.
I just wish that they would take the S6 from the back of the lot (hidden), and put it on the showroom floor too
And as I'm thinking about it, the fact that the salesman told me that the S6's were not selling probably has a lot to do with the fact that they aren't, i.e. he's not sold on it - um...interesting
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04-07-2002, 08:58 AM
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A excerpt from one of my earlier posts about the RS6 . . .
Begin Quote:
"My guess is that most of the buyers are selecting the hypothetical N.A. RS6 for the purpose of personal enjoyment. Their focus is on having an aesthetically beautiful, remarkably engineered, and extraordinarily fun four dour sedan to drive. Not only drive once in awhile but literally every day all year if necessary.
I love the proposed RS6 and what it represents. If I were to buy it the reasoning would be completely independent of all other aspects. It is a car to own, drive, and enjoy. Some may think it is a good speculative purchase but those people are probably going to be few and far between."
End Quote
In regards to the S6, I think the same applies. Although I think advertising the S6 on eBay undermines the value of the car for the dealer(s). The owners are not impacted realistically because everyone takes a depreciation hit the moment the car becomes registered. Brand aside, generally any new car ( esp.over $50K) takes that hit almost without exception. That hit far exceeds any discount one would successfully receive via eBay.
However, eBay has two types of auctions and with a 99%/1% split. The auctions of items people want dispose of efficiently and quickly (read discounted), and auctions of highly desired items that allow the seller to get top dollar for short money(read premium). Certain dealers pushed the S6 into the first category by jumping on eBay too soon. It gives the perception that the dealer will discount the car just to facilitate the sale. This at a time when other dealers were reasonably toeing the line in terms of price.
Anyone who walks into a dealer and sees an unsold "one" only car jumps to one conclusion. If the car has been there any length of time the buyer psychology says discount. In reality the S6 is a "one or two" only car because not a ton of them were made and because each dealer only received a few. The eBay antics help to complicate matters for the other dealers who don't need to discount the car to sell. Naturally flooring costs make it cost effective to discount any car if enough time elapses.
Simply by virtue of placing the car on eBay suggests the dealer is trying to reach a larger market because they cannot sell in their existing market. This suggests discount to the bidder. My point is that the dealers are hurt by the eBay auctions. The buyers realistically should not care one way or another. Its a car, not an investment.
Most people will not care what happens to the price of the car because they purchased it for personal enjoyment/want. Some people absolutely positively must believe they paid the lowest price for any particular item. Then they want to be able to brag about paying a lower price for said item. Thus, all the cost issue discussion is a no win situation for anyone as you have mentioned.
On my S4 I received a significant discount above and beyond what AoA kindly afforded. The dealer offered the discount completely unaware if I was an Audi owner or not. It would have been offered to anyone who pushed on the price. I pushed, they offered.
You can buy S4's on eBay for close to the same discount. eBay is part of the marketplace and consequently will have an effect on pricing whether intentional or unintentional. It is really not much different than a dealer price cutting via print ad. Other dealers will eventually follow suit if the push is strong enough.
I bought the A6 and the S4 because they fit into my lifestyle at each particular moment. The financial aspect is virtually moot. I buy my cars so any dollar savings is just a bonus in my view. I did not get a bonus on my A6. Overall, I still enjoyed the car very much and would have enjoyed it even more if it were not for some misadventures.
I did get a bonus on the S4. It is a vast and measurable improvement over "my" A6 in all aspects. However, the net sum is the same for both cars. I bought them for my personal transportation needs and my personal enjoyment. Therefore I spend little time, if any, doing comparo's on price, performance, or whatever.
I enjoy and have more one car races with myself than I care to mention. My opinion of the motivation to purchase the RS6 is covered in my own quote. Once you transcend a certain price point for a car, chasing performance and price is a pointless journey.
"My guess is that most of the buyers are selecting the hypothetical N.A. RS6 for the purpose of personal enjoyment. Their focus is on having an aesthetically beautiful, remarkably engineered, and extraordinarily fun four dour sedan to drive. Not only drive once in awhile but literally every day all year if necessary.
I love the proposed RS6 and what it represents. If I were to buy it the reasoning would be completely independent of all other aspects. It is a car to own, drive, and enjoy. Some may think it is a good speculative purchase but those people are probably going to be few and far between."
End Quote
In regards to the S6, I think the same applies. Although I think advertising the S6 on eBay undermines the value of the car for the dealer(s). The owners are not impacted realistically because everyone takes a depreciation hit the moment the car becomes registered. Brand aside, generally any new car ( esp.over $50K) takes that hit almost without exception. That hit far exceeds any discount one would successfully receive via eBay.
However, eBay has two types of auctions and with a 99%/1% split. The auctions of items people want dispose of efficiently and quickly (read discounted), and auctions of highly desired items that allow the seller to get top dollar for short money(read premium). Certain dealers pushed the S6 into the first category by jumping on eBay too soon. It gives the perception that the dealer will discount the car just to facilitate the sale. This at a time when other dealers were reasonably toeing the line in terms of price.
Anyone who walks into a dealer and sees an unsold "one" only car jumps to one conclusion. If the car has been there any length of time the buyer psychology says discount. In reality the S6 is a "one or two" only car because not a ton of them were made and because each dealer only received a few. The eBay antics help to complicate matters for the other dealers who don't need to discount the car to sell. Naturally flooring costs make it cost effective to discount any car if enough time elapses.
Simply by virtue of placing the car on eBay suggests the dealer is trying to reach a larger market because they cannot sell in their existing market. This suggests discount to the bidder. My point is that the dealers are hurt by the eBay auctions. The buyers realistically should not care one way or another. Its a car, not an investment.
Most people will not care what happens to the price of the car because they purchased it for personal enjoyment/want. Some people absolutely positively must believe they paid the lowest price for any particular item. Then they want to be able to brag about paying a lower price for said item. Thus, all the cost issue discussion is a no win situation for anyone as you have mentioned.
On my S4 I received a significant discount above and beyond what AoA kindly afforded. The dealer offered the discount completely unaware if I was an Audi owner or not. It would have been offered to anyone who pushed on the price. I pushed, they offered.
You can buy S4's on eBay for close to the same discount. eBay is part of the marketplace and consequently will have an effect on pricing whether intentional or unintentional. It is really not much different than a dealer price cutting via print ad. Other dealers will eventually follow suit if the push is strong enough.
I bought the A6 and the S4 because they fit into my lifestyle at each particular moment. The financial aspect is virtually moot. I buy my cars so any dollar savings is just a bonus in my view. I did not get a bonus on my A6. Overall, I still enjoyed the car very much and would have enjoyed it even more if it were not for some misadventures.
I did get a bonus on the S4. It is a vast and measurable improvement over "my" A6 in all aspects. However, the net sum is the same for both cars. I bought them for my personal transportation needs and my personal enjoyment. Therefore I spend little time, if any, doing comparo's on price, performance, or whatever.
I enjoy and have more one car races with myself than I care to mention. My opinion of the motivation to purchase the RS6 is covered in my own quote. Once you transcend a certain price point for a car, chasing performance and price is a pointless journey.
04-07-2002, 09:41 AM
#9
The 50% of depositors are often speculating.
If the hype is high enough and they decide there is nothing else they want for the moment, they will take the car and then resell it shortly after they've tried it out. They are not enthusiasts, just opportunists. Others will be eyeing the market to see if they can turn a profit. Others are just pie in the skying, and hoping they win the lottery.
The true enthusiasts, will wait for the short time it will take to bring the car here. There will be new hype for other brands, but that won't mean they any better.
The true enthusiasts, will wait for the short time it will take to bring the car here. There will be new hype for other brands, but that won't mean they any better.
04-07-2002, 10:29 AM
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What do you mean, speculating??? How have they "learned their lesson"?
I just don't get it...there are not ****loads of S6s laying around in some poor slob, tiny-*** Audi dealer in the middle of butt-f*ck Kansas or similar...how do they lose anything? They still make a bigger margin on that car at $3k over invoice, or a $3-3500 discount, than they do on 2 2.7Ts which combined have an MSRP 1.5 x higher than the one S6.
I speculate that no one has any evidence that any dealer has lost any money on this S6.
What lesson was to be learned? ...that you can't price gouge on an Audi...any Audi? They don't need to, it already comes with a $6500 profit for them and they all get near MSRP...much better than selling 2 2.7Ts.
I speculate that no one has any evidence that any dealer has lost any money on this S6.
What lesson was to be learned? ...that you can't price gouge on an Audi...any Audi? They don't need to, it already comes with a $6500 profit for them and they all get near MSRP...much better than selling 2 2.7Ts.