Trivia question - is Audi owned by VW, Porsche, or stand-alone? If not owned, then affiliated?
01-02-2001, 12:24 PM
#11
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More trivia (long)
The Porsche/Piech relationship with VW is confusing at best (see my other post below)...
The Porsche branch of the family owns "VW-Austria", the authorized VW importer for Austria.
The Piech branch of the family owns "Porsche-Salzburg", the Porsche dealer in Salzburg (and occasional psuedo-factory race team in the 1970s).
The Porsche and VW companies are even more wierdly intertwined. In the 1960s, VW needed a Karmann Ghia replacement and Porsche needed an entry-level car. VW contracted Porsche to design such a car using existing VW parts and agreed to sell chassis/body-shells to Porsche at cost (in which Porsche would install better suspensions and more powerful motors). Thus, the 914 and 914/6 were born (oddly, all 914 variants were sold as "Porsche" in the US, but the 914/4 were sold as "VW-Porsche" in the RoW). Shortly before production began, VW's chairman (Heinz Nordhoff) died and his replacement changed the cost accounting in the 914 contract - amortizing the 914 tooling only across the 914/6 bodies rather than the whole 914 line. Thus, Porsche was paying more for a 914 chassis than a 911 chassis...
At the same time, VW was reviving the Audi brand and needed product/distribution/image/dealerships, etc. Porsche needed a better/larger dealer network, so they formed a new company (half owned by VW and half by Porsche) called "Porsche+Audi" to handle importation and dealer issues for both brands in the US. That's why you got "Porsche+Audi" parts for your 5000 and why you still often see Porsche and Audi dealers housed together to this day...
Again, VW contracted Porsche to design a sports car in the 1970s, this time for Audi, using Audi's inline-4. VW/Audi decided not to build the car due to fuel crises and economic slowdowns, so Porsche bought the design back and had Audi build the car at their Neckarsulm plant. That car was the 924, which of course was later developed into the 944.
Eventually, (1983 or so) Porsche bought VW's stake in Porsche+Audi and it morphed into Porsche Cars North America - the Porsche importer for the US and Canada. Of course, that's when Audi created AoA...
The Porsche branch of the family owns "VW-Austria", the authorized VW importer for Austria.
The Piech branch of the family owns "Porsche-Salzburg", the Porsche dealer in Salzburg (and occasional psuedo-factory race team in the 1970s).
The Porsche and VW companies are even more wierdly intertwined. In the 1960s, VW needed a Karmann Ghia replacement and Porsche needed an entry-level car. VW contracted Porsche to design such a car using existing VW parts and agreed to sell chassis/body-shells to Porsche at cost (in which Porsche would install better suspensions and more powerful motors). Thus, the 914 and 914/6 were born (oddly, all 914 variants were sold as "Porsche" in the US, but the 914/4 were sold as "VW-Porsche" in the RoW). Shortly before production began, VW's chairman (Heinz Nordhoff) died and his replacement changed the cost accounting in the 914 contract - amortizing the 914 tooling only across the 914/6 bodies rather than the whole 914 line. Thus, Porsche was paying more for a 914 chassis than a 911 chassis...
At the same time, VW was reviving the Audi brand and needed product/distribution/image/dealerships, etc. Porsche needed a better/larger dealer network, so they formed a new company (half owned by VW and half by Porsche) called "Porsche+Audi" to handle importation and dealer issues for both brands in the US. That's why you got "Porsche+Audi" parts for your 5000 and why you still often see Porsche and Audi dealers housed together to this day...
Again, VW contracted Porsche to design a sports car in the 1970s, this time for Audi, using Audi's inline-4. VW/Audi decided not to build the car due to fuel crises and economic slowdowns, so Porsche bought the design back and had Audi build the car at their Neckarsulm plant. That car was the 924, which of course was later developed into the 944.
Eventually, (1983 or so) Porsche bought VW's stake in Porsche+Audi and it morphed into Porsche Cars North America - the Porsche importer for the US and Canada. Of course, that's when Audi created AoA...
01-02-2001, 12:40 PM
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Re: VW vs Audi
Chris, I think you and phred have both made good points. The key is that the US market is a very different from Europe and the rest of the world for a variety of reasons. To the extent that the US market has the ability to buy a lot of cars, and that Audi is beginning to sell a lot more here, VW is shooting itself in the foot. VW also sells a lot more cars in the US than Audi does, and probably always will. But Audi and VW sell their cars to very different markets. To be simplistic, VW has always sold cheap, not particularly reliable cars to mainly young people in the US. Audi sells to a group with higher expectations. In the US these expectations include a 4 year 50K mile warranty with all service included. By comparison, VW warranty is 2 years and 24K. I know, compared to the UK, you probably think 24K and 2 years sounds great, but we Americans have high expectations for what we consider luxury cars. It is unlikely that VW is ever going to sell $50K cars in the US. But if they de-emphasize Audi, and don't give it the support with logistics, training and new product development that it requires, they can quickly reverse the success they are beginning to enjoy.
01-02-2001, 01:43 PM
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Slightly OT- about 10-14+yrs ago, Porsche...
Did an advertising campaign in all the major car magazines which had some of the "Words of Wisdom" of Dr. Ferdinand Porsche- some awesome insights into racing, and the larger application in real life. It was a classic, in red, with pictures and text in white. Would anyone here happen to have a copy of it laying around? Or even better have a version scanned electronically?
I had a copy on my corkboard while I was in middle school, but have lost it since then. Now that I've come to love AND drive these cars, I would love to have those words as part of my scrapbook.
Thanks in advance,
Ernesto
I had a copy on my corkboard while I was in middle school, but have lost it since then. Now that I've come to love AND drive these cars, I would love to have those words as part of my scrapbook.
Thanks in advance,
Ernesto
01-02-2001, 03:58 PM
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Re: A little history: Porsche, Audi, VW, & the four rings...
I'm not the history buff some of you guys are, but the information I have indicates that the Russians dismantled Audi immediately after WWII. Factory equipment, even people. Audi was left with nada, and , in order to continue as a car maker, and to raise the money to start anew, had to sell out to the devil aka VW.
01-02-2001, 06:29 PM
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I think it is far sighted - heres why;
There used to be a time when VW and Audi had separate platforms, and even separate 4 wheel drive systems (Syncho in VW, quattro with Audi). At the time, it was about $5000 upgrade to get an audi with quattro. not surprisingly, percentage wise, few Audi's were quattro's.
When they slashed the price of the quattro upgrade (to around $1600) in 1995, not only did sales of the cars start to take off, but the percentage of quattro's skyrocketed. Quattro is a fantastic system, and a huge "brand image", to the point that AWD is now a "must have" with many other car brands.
So, rather than 'dumbing down' the engineering to the lowest brand in your corporate bag, take the good stuff, and amortize it across more units. Clearly having a VW masquarading as an Audi (a la Passat) hasnt affected Audi sales; the Audi factories are maxed out at present, at 650 000 units annually, and the Passat is produced at a rate of about 400 000 annually. Pretty impressive.
By taking one good platform (eg the Golf,) you can have many good offspring, like the TT, offered at affordable prices, and still produced in relatively limited numbers. You could never do that on a stand alone platform basis. Oh but what about the Z3?, you say ..! Well, the Z3 is the front half of a last generation 3 series, and the back half from 2 generations ago!
The Golf platform is also under a Seat something, the skoda something else, and the Audi A3, and of course the popular Jetta. You can afford to 'get the engineering right' if the platforms churning out as many units as that!
This is the lesson GM are learning the hard way and why VW , globally, is kicking their ***. The GM way would be to take a Chevy, and try to convince you it was a Caddy (or Buick , or... or.. etc). If they took a Caddy, and did the reverse, ie spread the good things, (I know, I know!.. there arn't any good things!) down to the 'umble Chev, they wouldnt be in as much schtuck as they are.
Piech is a pretty amazing businessman, in my opinion. This is has final year before retirement, he wants to go out on a bang, and VW is big time cash rich. I bet he makes a run at BMW.
When they slashed the price of the quattro upgrade (to around $1600) in 1995, not only did sales of the cars start to take off, but the percentage of quattro's skyrocketed. Quattro is a fantastic system, and a huge "brand image", to the point that AWD is now a "must have" with many other car brands.
So, rather than 'dumbing down' the engineering to the lowest brand in your corporate bag, take the good stuff, and amortize it across more units. Clearly having a VW masquarading as an Audi (a la Passat) hasnt affected Audi sales; the Audi factories are maxed out at present, at 650 000 units annually, and the Passat is produced at a rate of about 400 000 annually. Pretty impressive.
By taking one good platform (eg the Golf,) you can have many good offspring, like the TT, offered at affordable prices, and still produced in relatively limited numbers. You could never do that on a stand alone platform basis. Oh but what about the Z3?, you say ..! Well, the Z3 is the front half of a last generation 3 series, and the back half from 2 generations ago!
The Golf platform is also under a Seat something, the skoda something else, and the Audi A3, and of course the popular Jetta. You can afford to 'get the engineering right' if the platforms churning out as many units as that!
This is the lesson GM are learning the hard way and why VW , globally, is kicking their ***. The GM way would be to take a Chevy, and try to convince you it was a Caddy (or Buick , or... or.. etc). If they took a Caddy, and did the reverse, ie spread the good things, (I know, I know!.. there arn't any good things!) down to the 'umble Chev, they wouldnt be in as much schtuck as they are.
Piech is a pretty amazing businessman, in my opinion. This is has final year before retirement, he wants to go out on a bang, and VW is big time cash rich. I bet he makes a run at BMW.
01-02-2001, 07:28 PM
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Some very interesting points . . .
I hadn't fully considered the idea of sharing the best technology among makes to amortize cost, and now that you've pointed it out, it seems obvious. Of course, it isn't unique to VW to introduce technology/features in their premium products then migrate them makes and models. Even GM has done this. I also agree with your assessment of Piech's ability, and had no idea he was getting ready to depart VW. It will be poorer for his absence. I think what I and others question is how VW products are being developed from a marketing rather than technology perspective. Many of them seem to overlap and blur with positions traditionally held by Audi products. Is this wise in the US market in the long term? I guess only time will tell.
01-03-2001, 06:08 AM
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Re: I think it is far sighted - heres why;
I think you are right. There has been a lot of negativity here about the VW/Audi cross sharing etc. I drove a Polo in the UK a couple of weeks ago, it had fantastic interior illumination, great quality plastics (would shame most US domestic products) and felt like a great quality product. I would not replace an Audi with a VW, but I do not see anything wrong with VW trying to keep their customers beyond a Passat, and if in it's own way a Passat is as good as an Audi, then great.
