C6 S6 vs. C5 RS6 and E60 M5 - Very, very long...
06-05-2007, 11:03 AM
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C6 S6 vs. C5 RS6 and E60 M5 - Very, very long...
Before I dig into specifics, some detail about my biases. I am a male in my late 40's, enjoy four door high-performance luxury vehicles, and base my auto buying decision on practical, real world driving - not some specification in a brochure or car magazine. For me, real world driving consists of a daily commute to my office, trips to Costco and the grocery store, rain half the year, occasional black ice and snow and pot marked, rut filled roads. Over the last dozen years or so, I have owned 9 BMW's and 7 Audi's. (I have not owned any Mercedes Benz products so no comparison here.) Those 16 cars include two C5 RS6's, two E60 M5's (V10) and one C6 S6 (V10). All of the referenced cars were my daily drives but I should mention I only kept the M5's for a few hundred miles each so my real world driving experience with each is somewhat limited. I had the RS6 for about 20,000 miles and the S6 now has 1,000 miles on the odometer. Currently, I have only the S6 and a Q7 in my garage.
While I like to compare horsepower, torque, 0-60 times, etc., in reality what I really value is smoothness, acceleration, handling, comfort, reliability and an understated elegance. Save the big wings, spoilers, and tack-on extras for someone else. Oh, and I'm not a big fan of manual transmissions. I am simply not that good with them and don't enjoy the struggle of the "perfect shift".
OK, so those are my biases in approaching this comparison. Now, onto the cars...
Handling. The first thing I noticed when I drove the RS6 is how flat it corners. The DRC works - and it works very well. Forget skid pad numbers and transient response specs, the RS6 is flat through corners. But, I also noticed the RS6 ride deteriorated as the car aged. I've read lots about DRC leaks and failures and perhaps that was my problem as well. But, if so, it went undiagnosed. By the time I gave up the RS6, it rode poorly and exhibited lots of squeaks and rattles. The M5 has an adjustable suspension which approximates the DRC is the firmest setting and has the benefit of a softer mode if/when desired. But, I also found myself fiddling with the M5 just because I could and trying to figure out the best setting for every situation - and that, for me, detracts from the driving experience. The S6 lacks both DRC and adjustable suspension. When I drove it from the dealership, before I even got it out of the parking lot, I felt how much firmer it rode than the RS6 I just traded. And, I thought, "Oh, no. All the stuff I read about the suspension being excessively firm is true. I am going to hate this car." But, I very quickly became accustomed to the ride. I found the seats do much to help support my body, especially vs. the poor-by-comparison seats in the RS6, and this makes the firm suspension not only tolerable but quite enjoyable. I think the less supportive seats in the RS6 made the ride more physical and therefore tiring while the S6 leaves me refreshed as any drive could. I also noticed that the S6 suspension soaks up bumps better than the RS6 - which I found quite contradictory in that I thought smooth was the inverse of firm, as least as far as suspension tuning goes. After a few weeks of diving, I like the S6 suspension better than the RS6, despite no DRC.
Engine. The RS6 was prone to "surging" or "hesitation" just off idle. Supposedly, this is a function of the turbos spooling up but, over time, I found it annoying. The upside of the RS6 is that, at about 2000 rpms, the torque curve comes alive and the car pulls effortlessly. The M5 and C6 S6 are naturally aspirated and the engines are very linear and smooth. The V10 in the M5 is high on top end power and low on low end torque While I won't deny it is ferocious at the top end, I spend most of my time in the lower rpm ranges and greatly missed the low end torque. The V10 in the S6, by comparison, is as smooth as the V10 in the M5 but feels MUCH better at low rpms. Perhaps the M5 can accelerate faster than an S6 but it isn't as enjoyable to live with every day. In fact, I must have been revving the V10 in the M5 to compensate for the lack of low end because I was getting 10 mpg in that car vs. 14 in the S6 - for the same daily drive. (The RS6 got 13.) With the smallish tank in the M5, I was visiting the gas station twice weekly. What a PITA. The S6 and M5 rev much more willingly than the RS6 and respond to throttle inputs much faster. The RS6 was my only turbo car and, for my taste, using these three cars as data points, I think the S6 engine is the best daily driver with the M5 the best high output. Sorry, in this field, the turbo engine comes up short.
RWD vs. AWD. I've heard many say they love the throttle on overseer of the M5 and, frankly, I simply don't agree. I just love to be able to mash the throttle in the RS6 or S6 and have the car simply go - no flashing traction lights, wheel spin or drama. The M5, for me, became scary when the roads are slick. I drive farm roads daily - big drop offs and no guard rails. In the winter, someone turns over every few weeks. I could not launch the M5 uphill on a slick road without inducing wheel spin or triggering traction control. The flashing yellow dash light becomes very annoying even if it does work fairly seamlessly. Quattro is a huge win for Audi. Now, many will complain about the nose heavy feel of the Audi driveline configuration (engine far out in front) and/or AWD. I would admit some of that was true for the RS6. That car was nose heavy and it did not respond to steering inputs as well as the M5. But, the S6 is a different situation. Despite being bigger and heavier (I think) than the RS6 and with a slightly lower power engine, if feels amazing nimble on its feet, turns aggressively and is simply a joy to drive in daily commute. Maybe the 40/60 front/rear torque split does the trick. I don't really know. But the author in BMW CCA's Roundel who dinged Audi for nose heavy cars - despite admitting never haven driven one - needs to go take one for a ride. The S6 is truly amazing. The M5 steering responds even better (I assume due to RWD and better weight distribution) but not by much - and the overall experience is marred by the lack of low end torque - and the SMG transmission.
Transmission. It isn't hard to marvel at the M5 SMG. It shifts wonderfully when being pushed hard and it makes you feel like an F1 driver with perfect downshifts. If I could drive at 9/10ths every day, I'd love it. But, for normal commute driving, the shifts are balky and slow. The shift speeds are adjustable but that is only part of the story. The shifting also responds to throttle and rpms. Which means I found myself winding the engine out when I did not need to just to get it to shift smoothly - even in manual mode. I tried to leave it in automatic mode but it was so absolutely infuriating to live with on a daily basis that I just couldn't do it. I'm sure some love SMG; I am not one of them. I also don't understand the myriad of adjustability options on the M5 SMG - engine power, transmission, suspension, steering, etc. I think BMW claims 278 variations in all. Why??? It takes too much effort to set that car up and then it defaults to some pre-programmed baseline every time it is restarted. Options can be stored and recalled with one button - but why reset to a default at all? I think that detracts from the car. I know the M5 now has a manual option and I can feel the flames from the BMW guys about the control a manual provides and compared to Audi's wimpy slush box. To each his own. Audi's automatic is the S6 works better than any automatic I have owned. In normal mode, it upshifts VERY quickly, allowing for minimal fuel consumption and in S-mode, it winds out the engine appropriately based upon throttle inputs. Two well designed choices - I am never wanting for more. The paddle shifters work very well. In commute driving, the S6 paddle shifts have nearly the immediacy of the M5 SMG and shifts are MUCH smoother and feel faster - even though they may not be faster. I do notice the S6 doesn't have the engine drag of the RS6 making downshifting not as useful for downhill engine braking. For me, an automatic is best - until Audi puts a DSG in the S6 or RS6, that is. Too bad Audi supposedly cannot fit DSG into the C6 platform. (I've driven a DSG equipped Audi TT and it is amazing in the way it shifts.)
Interior. The RS6 seat has sufficient travel for my 6'2", 230 pound frame and a reasonable sized adult can fit behind me. I loved that most everything has a dedicated button - no iDrive or MMI. The navigation is rather primitive in the info it provided but I liked the location between the tach and speedometer. The M5 feels more roomy and more comfortable and the extended leather option is just gorgeous. Plenty of room for me and those behind me. Very comfortable driving position. The interior is otherwise rather stark and uninviting. Strange considering the busy exterior and the complication of iDrive -the interior is almost too simple by comparison. Still, I could live with this interior every day. It's a nice place to sit. The S6 doesn't have the extended leather option like the M5 (although a leather dash is available and a nice upgrade for $1275) but it is an ergonomic joy - comfortable seats, roomy, good displays, well lit, easy to get to controls - and controls that work as one expects.
BMW's iDrive is a nightmare with Audi's MMI only a slight improvement. At least Audi has hot bottoms to move you around the menus. The M5's I had did not. Why can't we go back to dedicated buttons for radio controls? Why didn't Audi duplicate the up/down arrow buttons on the console on the steering wheel? Much simpler than the voice button to do much of the same thing. Why does BMW keep playing the CD if muted so it isn't where you left off when you unmute? I work in high tech and this stuff doesn't scare me but the deep menu structures seem inappropriate in a two ton moving object. I understand the menus for initial set up functions but not for HVAC and radio which are often adjusted while moving. And some say cell phones in a car are dangerous...
I like that Audi has a redundant screen between the tach and speedometer - very nice to have navigation on the big screen and phone, radio or nav on the small screen - at the same time! BMW offers a split screen which technically does the same thing - but it is very busy and takes eyes off the road. One of my M5's had the HUD display. A cool option but I found the that tach display could not keep up with the engine, making for odd shift points. And the BMW turn signal takes some time to get used to. Which is exactly my point. Why do I need to relearn a turn signal? (Remember when Ford put the horn at the end of the turn signal stalk? Duh???)
Exterior. I haven't been a fan of the flame surfaced E60. That said, the M5 is the best looking of the E60 series. It is the lights that bother me most - front and rear. To me, they just look wrong. I like the bulging fender flares of the RS6 but it is a little more "bubbly" than I like and is showing its age. The S6 seems rather plain by comparison but, at the same time, is understatedly elegant and classy. I hated the uncoordinated gray plastic around the tailpipes (my S6 is Phantom Black) so I replaced it with the Mad Audi carbon fiber piece. Still, I think Audi should have just painted that piece to match the car or made some honeycomb diffuser to replace it. And I wish Audi had done more visually to differentiate the S6 from lesser A6's.
Wheels: I have received several positive comments about the S6 wheels. However, I love the "deep dish" look of the M5 wheels. I'm told this is due to BMW offsets but, whatever the reason, I think they look great. I wish Audi had a similar look.
Interior Sound. I never loved the audio of the RS6. It was acceptable but not among the best. The S6 audio system adds a whole new dimension and I find myself hearing things on my CD's I forgotten were there. It is a big improvement over the RS6. I use the Bose surround function daily and find it has a good amount of processing to keep me happy without over "technifying" the sound. Sirius radio has lots of dropouts - same with the Q7. I have concluded that, for where I drive, the Sirius delivery method is inferior to XM (which I had in the RS6 with rarely a dropout.) I wish XM were an option in the S6. I didn't listen to the M5 system enough to comment one way or another. I spent too much time listening to that V10 and never enabled the Sirius radio!
One other point about the RS6 interior sound - there were a lot of squeaks and rattles and a boominess at 20-30 mph. The M5 and the S6 are quiet and feel rock solid.
Exterior Sound. At one point, I thought no one could argue with the RS6 sound enhancing exhaust. Then I got the M5 and the S6. Both V10's just sound menacing and I love listening to both of them.
Price. The S6 is notably less expensive than the M5. Some will argue the S6 is also less car and it should not compete against the M5. OK, fine. My point is, the S6 is a veritable bargain for what it offers at the price it commands. Try buying an M5 or E63 today for $80,000.
In the end, I consciously and deliberately traded top end power, SMG and RWD (M5) for low end torque, automatic and AWD (S6). The S6, for now, is the car for me. That said, my hat is off to M5 drivers. They have a wonderful machine.
I hope you enjoyed reading these opinions.
Regards,
Bob
While I like to compare horsepower, torque, 0-60 times, etc., in reality what I really value is smoothness, acceleration, handling, comfort, reliability and an understated elegance. Save the big wings, spoilers, and tack-on extras for someone else. Oh, and I'm not a big fan of manual transmissions. I am simply not that good with them and don't enjoy the struggle of the "perfect shift".
OK, so those are my biases in approaching this comparison. Now, onto the cars...
Handling. The first thing I noticed when I drove the RS6 is how flat it corners. The DRC works - and it works very well. Forget skid pad numbers and transient response specs, the RS6 is flat through corners. But, I also noticed the RS6 ride deteriorated as the car aged. I've read lots about DRC leaks and failures and perhaps that was my problem as well. But, if so, it went undiagnosed. By the time I gave up the RS6, it rode poorly and exhibited lots of squeaks and rattles. The M5 has an adjustable suspension which approximates the DRC is the firmest setting and has the benefit of a softer mode if/when desired. But, I also found myself fiddling with the M5 just because I could and trying to figure out the best setting for every situation - and that, for me, detracts from the driving experience. The S6 lacks both DRC and adjustable suspension. When I drove it from the dealership, before I even got it out of the parking lot, I felt how much firmer it rode than the RS6 I just traded. And, I thought, "Oh, no. All the stuff I read about the suspension being excessively firm is true. I am going to hate this car." But, I very quickly became accustomed to the ride. I found the seats do much to help support my body, especially vs. the poor-by-comparison seats in the RS6, and this makes the firm suspension not only tolerable but quite enjoyable. I think the less supportive seats in the RS6 made the ride more physical and therefore tiring while the S6 leaves me refreshed as any drive could. I also noticed that the S6 suspension soaks up bumps better than the RS6 - which I found quite contradictory in that I thought smooth was the inverse of firm, as least as far as suspension tuning goes. After a few weeks of diving, I like the S6 suspension better than the RS6, despite no DRC.
Engine. The RS6 was prone to "surging" or "hesitation" just off idle. Supposedly, this is a function of the turbos spooling up but, over time, I found it annoying. The upside of the RS6 is that, at about 2000 rpms, the torque curve comes alive and the car pulls effortlessly. The M5 and C6 S6 are naturally aspirated and the engines are very linear and smooth. The V10 in the M5 is high on top end power and low on low end torque While I won't deny it is ferocious at the top end, I spend most of my time in the lower rpm ranges and greatly missed the low end torque. The V10 in the S6, by comparison, is as smooth as the V10 in the M5 but feels MUCH better at low rpms. Perhaps the M5 can accelerate faster than an S6 but it isn't as enjoyable to live with every day. In fact, I must have been revving the V10 in the M5 to compensate for the lack of low end because I was getting 10 mpg in that car vs. 14 in the S6 - for the same daily drive. (The RS6 got 13.) With the smallish tank in the M5, I was visiting the gas station twice weekly. What a PITA. The S6 and M5 rev much more willingly than the RS6 and respond to throttle inputs much faster. The RS6 was my only turbo car and, for my taste, using these three cars as data points, I think the S6 engine is the best daily driver with the M5 the best high output. Sorry, in this field, the turbo engine comes up short.
RWD vs. AWD. I've heard many say they love the throttle on overseer of the M5 and, frankly, I simply don't agree. I just love to be able to mash the throttle in the RS6 or S6 and have the car simply go - no flashing traction lights, wheel spin or drama. The M5, for me, became scary when the roads are slick. I drive farm roads daily - big drop offs and no guard rails. In the winter, someone turns over every few weeks. I could not launch the M5 uphill on a slick road without inducing wheel spin or triggering traction control. The flashing yellow dash light becomes very annoying even if it does work fairly seamlessly. Quattro is a huge win for Audi. Now, many will complain about the nose heavy feel of the Audi driveline configuration (engine far out in front) and/or AWD. I would admit some of that was true for the RS6. That car was nose heavy and it did not respond to steering inputs as well as the M5. But, the S6 is a different situation. Despite being bigger and heavier (I think) than the RS6 and with a slightly lower power engine, if feels amazing nimble on its feet, turns aggressively and is simply a joy to drive in daily commute. Maybe the 40/60 front/rear torque split does the trick. I don't really know. But the author in BMW CCA's Roundel who dinged Audi for nose heavy cars - despite admitting never haven driven one - needs to go take one for a ride. The S6 is truly amazing. The M5 steering responds even better (I assume due to RWD and better weight distribution) but not by much - and the overall experience is marred by the lack of low end torque - and the SMG transmission.
Transmission. It isn't hard to marvel at the M5 SMG. It shifts wonderfully when being pushed hard and it makes you feel like an F1 driver with perfect downshifts. If I could drive at 9/10ths every day, I'd love it. But, for normal commute driving, the shifts are balky and slow. The shift speeds are adjustable but that is only part of the story. The shifting also responds to throttle and rpms. Which means I found myself winding the engine out when I did not need to just to get it to shift smoothly - even in manual mode. I tried to leave it in automatic mode but it was so absolutely infuriating to live with on a daily basis that I just couldn't do it. I'm sure some love SMG; I am not one of them. I also don't understand the myriad of adjustability options on the M5 SMG - engine power, transmission, suspension, steering, etc. I think BMW claims 278 variations in all. Why??? It takes too much effort to set that car up and then it defaults to some pre-programmed baseline every time it is restarted. Options can be stored and recalled with one button - but why reset to a default at all? I think that detracts from the car. I know the M5 now has a manual option and I can feel the flames from the BMW guys about the control a manual provides and compared to Audi's wimpy slush box. To each his own. Audi's automatic is the S6 works better than any automatic I have owned. In normal mode, it upshifts VERY quickly, allowing for minimal fuel consumption and in S-mode, it winds out the engine appropriately based upon throttle inputs. Two well designed choices - I am never wanting for more. The paddle shifters work very well. In commute driving, the S6 paddle shifts have nearly the immediacy of the M5 SMG and shifts are MUCH smoother and feel faster - even though they may not be faster. I do notice the S6 doesn't have the engine drag of the RS6 making downshifting not as useful for downhill engine braking. For me, an automatic is best - until Audi puts a DSG in the S6 or RS6, that is. Too bad Audi supposedly cannot fit DSG into the C6 platform. (I've driven a DSG equipped Audi TT and it is amazing in the way it shifts.)
Interior. The RS6 seat has sufficient travel for my 6'2", 230 pound frame and a reasonable sized adult can fit behind me. I loved that most everything has a dedicated button - no iDrive or MMI. The navigation is rather primitive in the info it provided but I liked the location between the tach and speedometer. The M5 feels more roomy and more comfortable and the extended leather option is just gorgeous. Plenty of room for me and those behind me. Very comfortable driving position. The interior is otherwise rather stark and uninviting. Strange considering the busy exterior and the complication of iDrive -the interior is almost too simple by comparison. Still, I could live with this interior every day. It's a nice place to sit. The S6 doesn't have the extended leather option like the M5 (although a leather dash is available and a nice upgrade for $1275) but it is an ergonomic joy - comfortable seats, roomy, good displays, well lit, easy to get to controls - and controls that work as one expects.
BMW's iDrive is a nightmare with Audi's MMI only a slight improvement. At least Audi has hot bottoms to move you around the menus. The M5's I had did not. Why can't we go back to dedicated buttons for radio controls? Why didn't Audi duplicate the up/down arrow buttons on the console on the steering wheel? Much simpler than the voice button to do much of the same thing. Why does BMW keep playing the CD if muted so it isn't where you left off when you unmute? I work in high tech and this stuff doesn't scare me but the deep menu structures seem inappropriate in a two ton moving object. I understand the menus for initial set up functions but not for HVAC and radio which are often adjusted while moving. And some say cell phones in a car are dangerous...
I like that Audi has a redundant screen between the tach and speedometer - very nice to have navigation on the big screen and phone, radio or nav on the small screen - at the same time! BMW offers a split screen which technically does the same thing - but it is very busy and takes eyes off the road. One of my M5's had the HUD display. A cool option but I found the that tach display could not keep up with the engine, making for odd shift points. And the BMW turn signal takes some time to get used to. Which is exactly my point. Why do I need to relearn a turn signal? (Remember when Ford put the horn at the end of the turn signal stalk? Duh???)
Exterior. I haven't been a fan of the flame surfaced E60. That said, the M5 is the best looking of the E60 series. It is the lights that bother me most - front and rear. To me, they just look wrong. I like the bulging fender flares of the RS6 but it is a little more "bubbly" than I like and is showing its age. The S6 seems rather plain by comparison but, at the same time, is understatedly elegant and classy. I hated the uncoordinated gray plastic around the tailpipes (my S6 is Phantom Black) so I replaced it with the Mad Audi carbon fiber piece. Still, I think Audi should have just painted that piece to match the car or made some honeycomb diffuser to replace it. And I wish Audi had done more visually to differentiate the S6 from lesser A6's.
Wheels: I have received several positive comments about the S6 wheels. However, I love the "deep dish" look of the M5 wheels. I'm told this is due to BMW offsets but, whatever the reason, I think they look great. I wish Audi had a similar look.
Interior Sound. I never loved the audio of the RS6. It was acceptable but not among the best. The S6 audio system adds a whole new dimension and I find myself hearing things on my CD's I forgotten were there. It is a big improvement over the RS6. I use the Bose surround function daily and find it has a good amount of processing to keep me happy without over "technifying" the sound. Sirius radio has lots of dropouts - same with the Q7. I have concluded that, for where I drive, the Sirius delivery method is inferior to XM (which I had in the RS6 with rarely a dropout.) I wish XM were an option in the S6. I didn't listen to the M5 system enough to comment one way or another. I spent too much time listening to that V10 and never enabled the Sirius radio!
One other point about the RS6 interior sound - there were a lot of squeaks and rattles and a boominess at 20-30 mph. The M5 and the S6 are quiet and feel rock solid.
Exterior Sound. At one point, I thought no one could argue with the RS6 sound enhancing exhaust. Then I got the M5 and the S6. Both V10's just sound menacing and I love listening to both of them.
Price. The S6 is notably less expensive than the M5. Some will argue the S6 is also less car and it should not compete against the M5. OK, fine. My point is, the S6 is a veritable bargain for what it offers at the price it commands. Try buying an M5 or E63 today for $80,000.
In the end, I consciously and deliberately traded top end power, SMG and RWD (M5) for low end torque, automatic and AWD (S6). The S6, for now, is the car for me. That said, my hat is off to M5 drivers. They have a wonderful machine.
I hope you enjoyed reading these opinions.
Regards,
Bob
06-05-2007, 12:53 PM
#3
Great writeup! One question,
You've had an incredible stable of cars. Why did you only keep the 2 M5s for several hundred miles a piece?
I didn't drive the M5, but did look seriously at the E63. IMO, no comparison, especially for the money. The S6 is my daily driver too. I've never owned a better vehicle...and probably never will!
I didn't drive the M5, but did look seriously at the E63. IMO, no comparison, especially for the money. The S6 is my daily driver too. I've never owned a better vehicle...and probably never will!
06-05-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: Answer to your question
I put deposits down on three E60 M5's when the E60 5 series first came out. Because of the long wait when the M5 first began shipping, I ordered the first M5 for a business associate. The agreement was to cover my expenses and let me drive the car for a few hundred miles. In the meantime, I ordered the second M5 for me but then decided I just did not want it as a daily driver after my experience with the first car. I made the same deal again. I didn't make a penny on the transactions but I did get to drive two incredible cars for the price of a few tanks of gas.
I did consider MB but the dealer experience cut me short of a test drive.
I did consider MB but the dealer experience cut me short of a test drive.
06-05-2007, 03:05 PM
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Re: C6 S6 vs. C5 RS6 and E60 M5 - Very, very long...
Great write-up, thanks. I think all of us who purchased an S6 tried to compare it to the M5 (which is impossible to test drive, at least where I live): this is the best review/comparison I have seen anywhere.
I got the S6 as well and love it as much as you do (my only -small- issue: I agree with you when you say "I do notice the S6 doesn't have the engine drag of the RS6 making downshifting not as useful for downhill engine braking.")
I got the S6 as well and love it as much as you do (my only -small- issue: I agree with you when you say "I do notice the S6 doesn't have the engine drag of the RS6 making downshifting not as useful for downhill engine braking.")
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06-05-2007, 05:44 PM
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Well said Bob, and you've put down on paper what most of us believe
that the S6 is the performance car to live with.
As I said on the A5 boards, when Evo magazine did a comparison between the M5 Touring and the RS4 Avant, the latter was the preferred car for 95% of the time.
It's not all about 0-60 and slalom course times.
As I said on the A5 boards, when Evo magazine did a comparison between the M5 Touring and the RS4 Avant, the latter was the preferred car for 95% of the time.
It's not all about 0-60 and slalom course times.
06-05-2007, 06:10 PM
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Re: C6 S6 vs. C5 RS6 and E60 M5 - Very, very long...
Great review. Now I want to trade my A6 for an S6 even more...
Oh well, I love my A6 anyway but I'll pass the review to my colleague M5 owner...
Oh well, I love my A6 anyway but I'll pass the review to my colleague M5 owner...
