Audi is trying to locate an A8L for me...don't konw how
07-11-2003, 10:23 AM
#22
Have they given you a case number or the reps number yet ? They often do.
To bypass the dealer, try the customer advocacy line.
1-800-822-2834
Indicate which dealer you've been working with - and zone rep if you know their name.
1-800-822-2834
Indicate which dealer you've been working with - and zone rep if you know their name.
07-11-2003, 10:57 AM
#23
Nobody no matter who they are, "has a RIGHT to be difficult" if they are being treated
fairly to the best of the other company's abilities. Behaving "difficult" implies childishness and illogical behaviour. Be constructive. Work towards a goal. Dinan most certainly has a right to be annoyed and gain satisfaction within the boundries of reality as they exist. I'm talking about this from a moralistic point of view of course. Crapping on the head of someone who is trying to help you, is a very poor way moving through the world. Forcefully directing people in a cooperative manner while being willing to listen, seems to get the furthest.
They are bending over backwards by not making him jump through hoops waiting for the car to be declared a lemon. They are bending over backwards by offering a replacement as soon as an acceptable one can be found or possibly made. I don't see anything wrong with those actions unless you mean they should be making a show of kissing a$$. Does that get the car there any faster ? Does it improve the channel of communication between customer and manufacturer ? No. It may make some people happier if they are wired to appreciate that. I know that some people expect that. Audi should be doing more of that, even if they can't be more effectual in other ways.
If you frequent other car forums ( I frequent BMW forums ), then you know that the buyback process can sometimes take weeks, but I've never heard of it happening in days. If this had gone to arbitration, it would have taken several weeks just for the hearing. If they had gone lemon law, it would have taken even longer.
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e39/archives/forum.php?postid=525679&page=3
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e65/forum.php?postid=982805&page=3
Remember that we are hearing only Dinan's side of the transaction. Granted it is by FAR the most important side, but we can't ignore certain limitations.
If you were in charge of helping Dinan, what would you do ? Now remember you have no control of how the cars are produced, just of procuring a car that will make the customer happy. We aren't talking about company manufacturing structure from a philosophical view. We're talking about how you would fix THIS problem.
AoA, knowing that it has an image to protect, suggests in it's training to Audi Brand Specialists that they not try to make everyone a convert to the brand, if it isn't a good fit for them. Better that all the people driving an Audi be happy doing so. That implies some weeding out. Remember it isn't someone telling you that you can't buy the car, but rather that instead of using force of will to talk them into the car when you can see it won't make them happy in the end, that you not do so. I've had many an occasion where I knew I could force someone to buy the car, but from our discussions of what they were looking for in a car, I knew it was not the best choice. I would send them to the brand that I thought would make them happiest even though I might be losing a fat commission. Maybe the A8 isn't for you ? As you are no doubt aware, when building a brand, it's not all about the money in the customer's pocket. Even as the JD Power surveys show - it's more about who you sell to and their expectations, than actual product performance.
You seem to be more interested in the philosophical company structure and using Dinan's situation as a cause celebre, than an actual working solution of this situation as it exists in this moment. That's fine, but the two exist on different plains and should perhaps be treated as a seperate thread since it does nothing constructive for Dinan at this time.
I can see from your posts you're the impulsive emotional type who responds to drama. If that works for you, fine. It takes all kinds to make the world turn. You should know from experience then that German companies rarely respond to emotional outbursts. So let me say again for the 3rd time that screaming about it won't change anything at this time. When AoA responds, and if it is not something Dinan wanted to hear, then we have the right to offer up opinions and offer advice if solicited. Right now we're like commentators before the big game. All we can do is theorize. We aren't the players - we're just the observers:-)
They are bending over backwards by not making him jump through hoops waiting for the car to be declared a lemon. They are bending over backwards by offering a replacement as soon as an acceptable one can be found or possibly made. I don't see anything wrong with those actions unless you mean they should be making a show of kissing a$$. Does that get the car there any faster ? Does it improve the channel of communication between customer and manufacturer ? No. It may make some people happier if they are wired to appreciate that. I know that some people expect that. Audi should be doing more of that, even if they can't be more effectual in other ways.
If you frequent other car forums ( I frequent BMW forums ), then you know that the buyback process can sometimes take weeks, but I've never heard of it happening in days. If this had gone to arbitration, it would have taken several weeks just for the hearing. If they had gone lemon law, it would have taken even longer.
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e39/archives/forum.php?postid=525679&page=3
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e65/forum.php?postid=982805&page=3
Remember that we are hearing only Dinan's side of the transaction. Granted it is by FAR the most important side, but we can't ignore certain limitations.
If you were in charge of helping Dinan, what would you do ? Now remember you have no control of how the cars are produced, just of procuring a car that will make the customer happy. We aren't talking about company manufacturing structure from a philosophical view. We're talking about how you would fix THIS problem.
AoA, knowing that it has an image to protect, suggests in it's training to Audi Brand Specialists that they not try to make everyone a convert to the brand, if it isn't a good fit for them. Better that all the people driving an Audi be happy doing so. That implies some weeding out. Remember it isn't someone telling you that you can't buy the car, but rather that instead of using force of will to talk them into the car when you can see it won't make them happy in the end, that you not do so. I've had many an occasion where I knew I could force someone to buy the car, but from our discussions of what they were looking for in a car, I knew it was not the best choice. I would send them to the brand that I thought would make them happiest even though I might be losing a fat commission. Maybe the A8 isn't for you ? As you are no doubt aware, when building a brand, it's not all about the money in the customer's pocket. Even as the JD Power surveys show - it's more about who you sell to and their expectations, than actual product performance.
You seem to be more interested in the philosophical company structure and using Dinan's situation as a cause celebre, than an actual working solution of this situation as it exists in this moment. That's fine, but the two exist on different plains and should perhaps be treated as a seperate thread since it does nothing constructive for Dinan at this time.
I can see from your posts you're the impulsive emotional type who responds to drama. If that works for you, fine. It takes all kinds to make the world turn. You should know from experience then that German companies rarely respond to emotional outbursts. So let me say again for the 3rd time that screaming about it won't change anything at this time. When AoA responds, and if it is not something Dinan wanted to hear, then we have the right to offer up opinions and offer advice if solicited. Right now we're like commentators before the big game. All we can do is theorize. We aren't the players - we're just the observers:-)
07-11-2003, 11:59 AM
#26
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Re: Nobody no matter who they are, "has a RIGHT to be difficult" if they are being treated
Great points again April, I guess we all get too emotional about these cars and issues...or we wouldn't be participating in forums of this type. AofA is doing the right thing by not going the lemon law route and expediting the whole process by searching for a replacement, thus starting with a clean slate.
In the back of the "new D3 guys minds" like myself (if my replacement car every finds it's way out of Houston) is the hope that this car wasn't rushed to market and god forbid, it turns into the lastest "745i situation" as far as mfr. buybacks. I just hate to see the MB & BMW defectors having these type of issues with Audi's as I also hope that Dinan's car was a unique problem to that motorcar...and not inherant design flaw.
In the back of the "new D3 guys minds" like myself (if my replacement car every finds it's way out of Houston) is the hope that this car wasn't rushed to market and god forbid, it turns into the lastest "745i situation" as far as mfr. buybacks. I just hate to see the MB & BMW defectors having these type of issues with Audi's as I also hope that Dinan's car was a unique problem to that motorcar...and not inherant design flaw.
07-11-2003, 01:21 PM
#27
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if I were in charge....
... and audi engineers from germany had declared that the car should be replaced, i would be willing to do the following:
[1] get a brand new car, to the customer's specs. i would (a) search inventory and production for a car that matches the customer's specs [this seems to be what they are doing, which is great] and if that didn't turn up an answer immediately (they can theoretically do this all by computer in a fraction of a day) then (b) commandeer a car entering production that is destined for dealer stock and produce it for the customer. if it actually takes N weeks to construct one A8 L, then after N weeks i'd put it on the next available boat to the states, and route it from houston as quickly as humanly possible. N+1.5 weeks or so should do it.
[2] i'd be willing to give the customer a loaner car. either an A6 demo (most dealers seem to have plenty of these) or maybe a preowned A8 for the durationa of the delay above. AoA could probably commandeer an exec car from HQ if necessary as an alternative. certainly AoA should assume some or all of the costs associated with this.
[3] i'd offer to return all of the customer's out-of-pocket money immediately; and offer similar or better rates on their replacement loan/lease when it arrived.
if the customer decided they didn't want the car when it arrived, i'd happily turn around and sell it at MSRP for a $5K to $6K profit.
the financial risk here isn't that large. at a minimum, the dealer made > $3,000 profit on this particular car (this particular customer negotiated a great deal), and AoA made their margin (no clue what that is). #2 is the only messy cost issue, and AoA could easily cover the dealer's cost by allocating them an extra A8 L, even if AoA wasn't willing to pick up any of the 2-3 month loaner cost.
if the customer chose not to purchase the replacement car when it showed up, then the dealer would theoretically have a $4K to $6K profit to be made flipping an in-demand, no-stock car out to market.
furthermore, if i were AoA (which i guess i am in this theoretical discussion), i would also:
[A] be embarrassed that i apparently put a car on the market a bit ahead of when i should have and
[B] be embarrassed that it takes me 2X to 4X longer to build an A8 L than my competitors build their top-end sedans.
and i'd work to make sure A and B got fixed and hopefully didn't happen again.
that's what i'd do.
doody.
doody.
[1] get a brand new car, to the customer's specs. i would (a) search inventory and production for a car that matches the customer's specs [this seems to be what they are doing, which is great] and if that didn't turn up an answer immediately (they can theoretically do this all by computer in a fraction of a day) then (b) commandeer a car entering production that is destined for dealer stock and produce it for the customer. if it actually takes N weeks to construct one A8 L, then after N weeks i'd put it on the next available boat to the states, and route it from houston as quickly as humanly possible. N+1.5 weeks or so should do it.
[2] i'd be willing to give the customer a loaner car. either an A6 demo (most dealers seem to have plenty of these) or maybe a preowned A8 for the durationa of the delay above. AoA could probably commandeer an exec car from HQ if necessary as an alternative. certainly AoA should assume some or all of the costs associated with this.
[3] i'd offer to return all of the customer's out-of-pocket money immediately; and offer similar or better rates on their replacement loan/lease when it arrived.
if the customer decided they didn't want the car when it arrived, i'd happily turn around and sell it at MSRP for a $5K to $6K profit.
the financial risk here isn't that large. at a minimum, the dealer made > $3,000 profit on this particular car (this particular customer negotiated a great deal), and AoA made their margin (no clue what that is). #2 is the only messy cost issue, and AoA could easily cover the dealer's cost by allocating them an extra A8 L, even if AoA wasn't willing to pick up any of the 2-3 month loaner cost.
if the customer chose not to purchase the replacement car when it showed up, then the dealer would theoretically have a $4K to $6K profit to be made flipping an in-demand, no-stock car out to market.
furthermore, if i were AoA (which i guess i am in this theoretical discussion), i would also:
[A] be embarrassed that i apparently put a car on the market a bit ahead of when i should have and
[B] be embarrassed that it takes me 2X to 4X longer to build an A8 L than my competitors build their top-end sedans.
and i'd work to make sure A and B got fixed and hopefully didn't happen again.
that's what i'd do.
doody.
doody.
07-11-2003, 01:25 PM
#28
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Re: Nobody no matter who they are, "has a RIGHT to be difficult" if they are being treated
[[[Nobody no matter who they are, "has a RIGHT to be difficult" if they are being treated fairly to the best of the other company's abilities]]]
99.9% of the time i would be in violent agreement with this statement.
if in fact the company is behaving ineptly, or foolishly, then that shouldn't be the case. obviously they could be behaving "fairly" and simply be incapable of fixing the problem or clueless or whatnot.
but that is certainly not the case in this particular situation.
the issue, i think, is whether or not the dealer/AoA are in fact working "to the best of their abilities". nobody on this board (except dinan5, perhaps) has enough data to say that they are or they aren't.
doody.
99.9% of the time i would be in violent agreement with this statement.
if in fact the company is behaving ineptly, or foolishly, then that shouldn't be the case. obviously they could be behaving "fairly" and simply be incapable of fixing the problem or clueless or whatnot.
but that is certainly not the case in this particular situation.
the issue, i think, is whether or not the dealer/AoA are in fact working "to the best of their abilities". nobody on this board (except dinan5, perhaps) has enough data to say that they are or they aren't.
doody.
07-11-2003, 01:59 PM
#30
1.
Not only does the car need to be found, but a person at the holding facility wherever it is, has to go out there and touch the thing and visually confirm all colours and options, then report back that all is good with the car and ready to go ( or what it needs to go ). Since the car may be slated for the opposite coast, heading for a different port, or already at a different port, all the paperwork for the car needs to be changed and the customs and trucking companies brought up to date to make sure the car goes where is should. It needs to be confirmed at the dealer who ordered that car, that they don't already have a firm buyer or that some other agreement made. After checking all of this, then the customer is informed about the car. No sooner.
2. You can rush the build as much as you wish, getting through customs sometimes can be a bit of stickler over which the manufacturer has no control. Given the A8 is about $16,000 less than the 4Matic S class, the cost cutting has to come from some place. It's likely shipping/customs priority among other areas.
3. I have seen a number of buybacks. In all cases the customer gets a car to drive. Usually a decent one whether a rental or same brand.
4. AoA is not AFS, nor does the dealer belong to either of these. It sounds like the dealer ( through whom the transaction is channeled ) has already started the refund process. It takes more than a a day or two to reverse the paperwork and cut a cheque. Most corporations work on the 30 day principle, as do dealers. In cases like this, it's all up to the bank/leasing company. You can't give back the money until the person releases ownership. It's a liability thing among others. You also have to void the DMV paperwork.
5. After all that work to locate a car, refund the money, and tie up a loaner car ( for anywhere up to 2 months ), most folks would see the wisdom of some kind of guarrantee. Even if they turn around and sell it for MSRP, they've still invested extra time and money in the effort. I don't see any car volume manufacturer who does this.
If you were the person in charge of procuring a car, you ( unfortunately ) wouldn't have control of production times or launch dates. The steering gear comes from ZF, who also makes parts for all German car companies.
I agree that it would be nice to make things more transparent and instananeous, but they're not. It's not fun for the new owner, the dealer, or the people involved at AoA. I don't know of anyone who likes to have to resolve things that shouldn't go wrong in the first place.<ul><li><a href="http://europe.autonews.com/page.cms?pageId=305">http://europe.autonews.com/page.cms?pageId=305</a</li></ul>
2. You can rush the build as much as you wish, getting through customs sometimes can be a bit of stickler over which the manufacturer has no control. Given the A8 is about $16,000 less than the 4Matic S class, the cost cutting has to come from some place. It's likely shipping/customs priority among other areas.
3. I have seen a number of buybacks. In all cases the customer gets a car to drive. Usually a decent one whether a rental or same brand.
4. AoA is not AFS, nor does the dealer belong to either of these. It sounds like the dealer ( through whom the transaction is channeled ) has already started the refund process. It takes more than a a day or two to reverse the paperwork and cut a cheque. Most corporations work on the 30 day principle, as do dealers. In cases like this, it's all up to the bank/leasing company. You can't give back the money until the person releases ownership. It's a liability thing among others. You also have to void the DMV paperwork.
5. After all that work to locate a car, refund the money, and tie up a loaner car ( for anywhere up to 2 months ), most folks would see the wisdom of some kind of guarrantee. Even if they turn around and sell it for MSRP, they've still invested extra time and money in the effort. I don't see any car volume manufacturer who does this.
If you were the person in charge of procuring a car, you ( unfortunately ) wouldn't have control of production times or launch dates. The steering gear comes from ZF, who also makes parts for all German car companies.
I agree that it would be nice to make things more transparent and instananeous, but they're not. It's not fun for the new owner, the dealer, or the people involved at AoA. I don't know of anyone who likes to have to resolve things that shouldn't go wrong in the first place.<ul><li><a href="http://europe.autonews.com/page.cms?pageId=305">http://europe.autonews.com/page.cms?pageId=305</a</li></ul>