Got a 97? Want to Upgrade to Tiptronic? Here's the first half of the procedure.
05-10-2003, 04:23 AM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
I think were not talking apples to apples here
The reason that skiwi mentions crimping versus soldering as a great joint is due to vibration resistance.
A soldered joint does not have a high tolereance to vibration resistance in the case of my wires being soldered together versus crimping.
If it is a component soldered into a board, it has high vibration resistance if done properly.
I don't agree that a soldered joint is not a good joint, it is. However, it has the chance to be cold soldered, but if you ever had anybody show you how to solder (like sweating a copper pipe in plumbing) it's easy not to have cold solders.
I don't think solders are 90% tin, most are something like 60% silver solder.
I too was in the military, went to school for soldering and crimping, and I think given a solder iron or a crimp tool, most people would screw up the crimp because they didn't get the pressure point correctly first. Plus you need a different crimper (or die) for almost every application.
My submarine had both solder joints and crimped joints everywhere (and missles are higher quality than automobiles, or at least if they build them to the mil spec they should be). They don't get the benefit of mass production, so you have to have very skilled workers working on them.
And for the record, if somebody gave me the proper crimp tool for (2) 24 gage wires and the correct lug, I would of crimped the connections! I think it would of been better for the application.
However, the soldered connections should never have a problem if properly supported with tie wraps.
My 0.02
pw
A soldered joint does not have a high tolereance to vibration resistance in the case of my wires being soldered together versus crimping.
If it is a component soldered into a board, it has high vibration resistance if done properly.
I don't agree that a soldered joint is not a good joint, it is. However, it has the chance to be cold soldered, but if you ever had anybody show you how to solder (like sweating a copper pipe in plumbing) it's easy not to have cold solders.
I don't think solders are 90% tin, most are something like 60% silver solder.
I too was in the military, went to school for soldering and crimping, and I think given a solder iron or a crimp tool, most people would screw up the crimp because they didn't get the pressure point correctly first. Plus you need a different crimper (or die) for almost every application.
My submarine had both solder joints and crimped joints everywhere (and missles are higher quality than automobiles, or at least if they build them to the mil spec they should be). They don't get the benefit of mass production, so you have to have very skilled workers working on them.
And for the record, if somebody gave me the proper crimp tool for (2) 24 gage wires and the correct lug, I would of crimped the connections! I think it would of been better for the application.
However, the soldered connections should never have a problem if properly supported with tie wraps.
My 0.02
pw
05-10-2003, 09:52 AM
#13
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there are 4 generic types of solders
1) soft solders for special materials (mostly 90-95% tin base, then indium, copper, silver or antimony). high temp (250+ c).
2) soft solders for metal (20-40% lead or tin base, rest antimony). high temp (290+ c)
3) solders for wave soldering pcb's (tin base 60% by mass, some 1.5% silver, rest lead). low temp (190 c).
4) solder for copper using an iron (60% tin base, 2% copper, the rest lead). low temp (190 c).
#4 is the type we are talking about here...
i have a brother who runs an electronics business which manufacturers pcb's for the telco industry in eurpoe/usa.
hth,
dave
'01 s8
2) soft solders for metal (20-40% lead or tin base, rest antimony). high temp (290+ c)
3) solders for wave soldering pcb's (tin base 60% by mass, some 1.5% silver, rest lead). low temp (190 c).
4) solder for copper using an iron (60% tin base, 2% copper, the rest lead). low temp (190 c).
#4 is the type we are talking about here...
i have a brother who runs an electronics business which manufacturers pcb's for the telco industry in eurpoe/usa.
hth,
dave
'01 s8
05-10-2003, 02:13 PM
#16
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Yep, completed the whole thing a week ago, but will have to go back into it
again to put the transmission cable gromet back in place.
05-11-2003, 01:59 AM
#17
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Hats off to you!
This has got to be the coolest mod I've ever seen. Whoever said the electronics in modern cars don't make them user maintainable had evidently reckoned without Prof Waterloo!
05-11-2003, 11:08 AM
#18
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here is a short article on the subject from a man whose opinion I highly regard.
asking my good friend on the audio side of the spectrum on this subject, who (imo) also happens to be one of the best cable designers in the world, he pointed me to an article that follows (this article can be found at www.cardas.com).
please, keep in mind that this atricle applies to manufacuring high-end audio cables, some that costs $5k for a one meter run.
these cables have to have both a high quality of the connection itself and long-term reliability/stability.
hope this helps...
---------
Solder vs. Crimped Connections
by George Cardas
When we look at crimping connectors onto cable vs soldering them, I would
have say that most crimped connections are better than most soldered
connections. However, the best connections are soldered connections. The
problem is there is only one type of solder connection that is truly a
joint, most are as the word states, a connection. Most solders, such as the
popular 60/40, are a slurried mixture of tin and lead. In making the joint
the tin/lead mixture melts, but as it solidifies it does so one metal at a
time. It goes into a slurry state and one metal is liquid and the other is
very small solid particles, sort of like wet cement. Next, the other metal
solidifies and creates a million little connections. This type of connection
is not particularly good and not permanent. When the phone company that had
to use this type of solder on their main frames, every joint had to be
reheated once a year to insure reliability. Even then, the "cold joint" was
a common occurrence. Bad and noisy joints were the main cause of failure in
early printed circuit boards and electronic equipment until some time in the
mid sixties or early seventies. Then they learned that eutectic joints were
perfectly reliable and I do mean perfectly. By the mid seventies or early
eighties most electronic equipment was being soldered with eutectic solder
(63/37). The reliability of printed circuit boards went up about 1000% and
solid state audio gear began to sound almost tolerable. Today, all printed
circuit boards use 63/37 eutectic solder. Eutectic solder is a special
mixture. The melting point of a eutectic solder is lower than any of its
component parts, so there is no slurry state in these solders. They solidify
as one piece and make a true solder joint, not a connection. Now, provided
that the parts being soldered are made of the metal incorporated in the
solder (tin plate in the example of printed circuit boards and component
leads, with 63/37 tin/lead eutectic solder in the solder baths), you will
have a perfect joint.
These quality joints are easy to see. Most solders are very shiny when
molten and get a haze on their surface as they solidify. Eutectic joints are
shiny all the way to the metal being soldered, if the metal being soldered
is of the same parent group as any of the components of the solder. Many of
the connectors I use are plated silver with a rhodium flash. The only wires
used in high end audio are copper and silver, so I developed a
tin/lead/silver/copper eutectic or Quadeutectic solder. I have never had, or
heard of, a single failure in one of these joints. This solder is now used
in the vast majority of all high end cables and equipment. Properly done,
Quadeutectic joints provide the best sound with the lowest noise and contact
resistance; all with absolute reliability.
We supply Quadeutectic solder in many sizes, with either activated rosin
core or organic water base flux. Activated rosin flux is ideal for most
applications where the components are not washed after soldering. The rosin
is actually a protective coating. The organic water based flux must be
washed from the component after it is soldered. Manufactures of boards
sometimes use the organic flux to get a really clean look to their boards,
however, they must be washed carefully after soldering to prevent corrosion.
I recommend the use of the rosin core solders for most applications.<ul><li><a href="http://cardas.com/cgi-bin/main_
please, keep in mind that this atricle applies to manufacuring high-end audio cables, some that costs $5k for a one meter run.
these cables have to have both a high quality of the connection itself and long-term reliability/stability.
hope this helps...
---------
Solder vs. Crimped Connections
by George Cardas
When we look at crimping connectors onto cable vs soldering them, I would
have say that most crimped connections are better than most soldered
connections. However, the best connections are soldered connections. The
problem is there is only one type of solder connection that is truly a
joint, most are as the word states, a connection. Most solders, such as the
popular 60/40, are a slurried mixture of tin and lead. In making the joint
the tin/lead mixture melts, but as it solidifies it does so one metal at a
time. It goes into a slurry state and one metal is liquid and the other is
very small solid particles, sort of like wet cement. Next, the other metal
solidifies and creates a million little connections. This type of connection
is not particularly good and not permanent. When the phone company that had
to use this type of solder on their main frames, every joint had to be
reheated once a year to insure reliability. Even then, the "cold joint" was
a common occurrence. Bad and noisy joints were the main cause of failure in
early printed circuit boards and electronic equipment until some time in the
mid sixties or early seventies. Then they learned that eutectic joints were
perfectly reliable and I do mean perfectly. By the mid seventies or early
eighties most electronic equipment was being soldered with eutectic solder
(63/37). The reliability of printed circuit boards went up about 1000% and
solid state audio gear began to sound almost tolerable. Today, all printed
circuit boards use 63/37 eutectic solder. Eutectic solder is a special
mixture. The melting point of a eutectic solder is lower than any of its
component parts, so there is no slurry state in these solders. They solidify
as one piece and make a true solder joint, not a connection. Now, provided
that the parts being soldered are made of the metal incorporated in the
solder (tin plate in the example of printed circuit boards and component
leads, with 63/37 tin/lead eutectic solder in the solder baths), you will
have a perfect joint.
These quality joints are easy to see. Most solders are very shiny when
molten and get a haze on their surface as they solidify. Eutectic joints are
shiny all the way to the metal being soldered, if the metal being soldered
is of the same parent group as any of the components of the solder. Many of
the connectors I use are plated silver with a rhodium flash. The only wires
used in high end audio are copper and silver, so I developed a
tin/lead/silver/copper eutectic or Quadeutectic solder. I have never had, or
heard of, a single failure in one of these joints. This solder is now used
in the vast majority of all high end cables and equipment. Properly done,
Quadeutectic joints provide the best sound with the lowest noise and contact
resistance; all with absolute reliability.
We supply Quadeutectic solder in many sizes, with either activated rosin
core or organic water base flux. Activated rosin flux is ideal for most
applications where the components are not washed after soldering. The rosin
is actually a protective coating. The organic water based flux must be
washed from the component after it is soldered. Manufactures of boards
sometimes use the organic flux to get a really clean look to their boards,
however, they must be washed carefully after soldering to prevent corrosion.
I recommend the use of the rosin core solders for most applications.<ul><li><a href="http://cardas.com/cgi-bin/main_
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