Saintsfanatik

Here is my scenario:

Due to work, I drive about 15-20k miles each year. These are 90+ percent highway miles.

I've always had a fascination with Audi, and A8's in particular. After test driving one recently, I was impressed with how nimble and powerful this big beast was, as well as how many tech goodies it had.

However, I have concerns. See, I'm looking to get five to seven years out of my next car that I purchase. I presently have driven my current vehicle, a 2002 Infiniti Q45 since 2007, from around 46,000 miles to today's 210,000 miles.

Present repairs for the Infiniti have been control arms, power steering system, front and rear wheel bearings. Usual maintenance (oil and other fluid changes and filters, rotations, brakes, tires, etc.

Prospective Audi:
This guy (Cars for Sale: 2007 Audi A8 L 4.2 in PLEASANTON, CA 94588: Sedan Details - 376357318 - AutoTrader.com ). He has around 94k on the clock. Understanding my driving demands from above, that would mean taking this car to almost 200k, if not to the 225k mileage by the time I'm done with it.

My question is: is this reasonable without *prohibitively* expensive repairs? Or is this just not the car for that kind of mileage? I'd like to keep my price for the car around the $20,000 mark (plus or minus a couple of thousand).

I plan to get a warrantee to repair anything major that goes wrong from purchase until warrantee termination (most aftermarket warrantees will take me out to 150,000 miles total). Betting on the major things that will break/need replacing to "give up the ghost" by then, and I'll preventatively replace things that are easily done (I'm not a wrench guy by any means, but if I can make my cost of ownership a bit less burdensome, it's a sacrifice I'll make). My local indy shop would handle anything more difficult.

If folks here can sanity check my expectations, I'd appreciate it.

Saintsfanatik

BTW, hi to everyone, and thanks for reading my first post. Hope this is the first of many fun informative ones.

Panelhead

1. Control arm bushings - 60 - 70 k if installed correctly. The upper control arms may go this far with bushings.
2. Sway bar links.
3. Transmission flush and filter.
4. Fuel filter.
5. Power steering fluid - replace fluid in reservoir twice.
6. Drain and refill front and rear differentials.
7. Clean the carbon front engine. This is an issue in the FSI motors. But cheaper to address than the timing belt on the port injection motors.

These items will require attention to get to 225k. Plus oil changes (7500 miles) tires, brake pads, and rotors (70,000).
I like changing the oil more frequent than many. But I drive 40 - 50,000 miles a year. In the last 20 years never had engine failure or oil consumption.

volvopentaman

These are strong and well built cars, with only a few glitches on the 2007 onward models.

Tranny is almost bullet-proof, oil change recommended by enthusiasts, but not by the workshop or service schedule. I'd go 70-100tmls with one oil.

The front upper control arm bushings are a small issue, not an expensive one to replace, I replaced just the bushings on my and my friends A8, both past 130tmls mark, of course they've probably been replaced before.

Wheel bearings last a long time, if driven on the highway. Normal brake overhauls needed of course, rotors and pads.

The 2007 onward 4,2FSI engine has carbon buildup issues in the intake ports, but i think highway usage minimizes this buildup, compared to city-driving.

Of course there is a chance to buy a total wreck, that has all the expensive problems, like MMI (entertainment system) failure, internal engine or tranny failure (both VERY uncommon to the A8), or some other funky glitch (like water getting into one of the many electrical parts). But these are uncommon problems, as long as the car is maintained properly.

Biggest issue if you have a sunroof is to keep the drains clean (by vacuuming them), clean them once every one or two years, to avoid water ingress into the cabin, and this causing electrical problems.

All in all great cars, and even greater if you know some DIY, or have a reasonable mechanic you trust.

Mister Bally

Although the 2007 has a different engine than my 2004, I have 236,000 miles on mine (bought it off a two year lease over 9 years ago) and i expect it to last until at least 300-350,000 miles. Look at my Bonneville photos in my albums or whatever in my public profile. It performed well with 216,000 miles on the clock.
Like Lee Iacocca said: " If you can find a better car, buy it."

MP4.2+6.0

Welcome.

Looks like a nice one, putting aside price debates. Well equipped, and the rear fridge is unusual in a non-W12 albeit a novelty. The wheels are actually the lightest factory ones, even though they look visually like they have a lot of metal--one of the forged sets. As a 2007 it is FSI (no timing belt as explained, but occasional valve fouling questions) and has rear back up camera. A good thing to have (my 2006 does not) given the length and the rear corner limited visibility. Listing does not mention adaptive cruise or AMI. AMi came in late in 2007, so more likely would be retrofit if it was even there. I didn't see it specifically in the listing, but I think it has keyless from what I can make out in the first interior picture.

As posted, it will have control arm issues over time. It probably does now if they weren't already done. You have been thru it with your Infiniti. Really try to get the service history. Add to what others have said, with keyless it may have some door handle issues over time. If it has soft close, it will have some stuff there too over time. Battery will either be late in life or already changed. TPMS wheel sensors are either changed, on very last legs (last 6 to 6 ½ years) or disabled. If working, you will see the pressure readout in MMI. If disabled, no warning lights or read out. With wheel sensors it is a fancier system than the mostly used basic indirect ABS sensor based system.

More generally, it would really behoove you to have it scanned/inspected pre purchase. The full scan for all the modules, not just the quasi worthless code reader stuff. I see from the dash picture it looks like all the warning lights are off, so obviously good. But several posts from new owners in the last 6 months have led me to think sometimes someone in the selling chain is sometimes (unethically) clearing codes pre sale, since lights turn on right after folks buy them. The quiet check there without raising any big flags is to also look at the emissions "readiness codes" specifically in a scan. If it shows "not ready" someone cleared the codes within the last few cold-hot-cold engine cycles, at least in the engine module.

I know Pleasanton since I am in SF Bay Area. I would either find a good indy (if you are local you want to know that anyway), or get it checked at Livermore Audi. If you are close to a purchase decision, I would get an inspection, full code readout (including readiness), specific inspection on front upper control arms and sway bar links, general look at brakes and wear. Front engine torque mount as a more advanced area that gets at a meaningful mechanical repair; 10 seconds to look at it if you know where it is. You would want to check every switch, every function. You can do that yourself in their lot/store. Besides what has been mentioned, plus the air ride (mostly on early ones it seems) and the trunk lid set up (more so the early ones again), most issues folks seem to run into are more on the systems/electrical side. Not chronic by any means, but not bulletproof either. To be expected with a very well equipped ride. And in turn why those checks before you buy can save you a bunch of hassle and $ later if you either build it into the negotiation or your repair budget, or worst case avoid a car with known issues buried in available codes and a handful of known areas to inspect carefully.

Last, do NOT assume an extended warranty will cover a lot of the issues most likely to be seen on a D3. As mentioned the core drivetrain can go to high miles--hundreds of thousands. But, suspension stuff is commonly excluded under "wear and tear" exceptions so you have to drill into that with a fine tooth comb. And, likewise you can find a lot of electrical or electronic stuff excluded, including Nav and the pop up screen. And for what most will cover like core drivetrain, big picture folks have relatively few issues. At a more advanced level, this is the exclusionary vs. listed covered items issue. You want tight exclusionary on a D3 (and read exclusions really carefully). Not sure you could even get (pricy) exclusionary by those miles, but in any case assess the price against coverage, known areas, how carefully you had it checked out, and whether you got the comprehensive service history.

Saintsfanatik

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. Sounded like what I was expecting, which isn't _too_ bad of a thing re: maintenance / problems.

Looks like I'm going to be joining the family, but with a Q5 instead. Just wanted to try something different than the premium sedan thing that I've been doing (and that completely NOT a knock against the A8L I drove--it was a dream).

Definitely something to keep in mind if/when I'm ready to do a 2015 A8L, perhaps?

Mister Bally

Look at MP4.2+6.0's photos in his signature. He has both so expect a few comments from him...

Saintsfanatik

Will do!

MP4.2+6.0

Various off the cuff reactions:

In general Q5 is a way different vehicle than the A8. Ride position of course is your typical car SUV...and minivan...high. If you like that--my wife does--a reasonable conclusion. We are empty nesters, but for little kids Q5 might be better with higher seating. A8 is the stretch mobile for bigger people. Q5 has about the rear legroom of an A6---more than an A4 that many often mistakenly say/conclude (seat spacing is greater in Q5). But A6 is a bit tighter in legroom than even SWB A8. D3 has way more side to side width, shoulder room, etc. Q5 wins the tighter parking contest all day long. Ours has a camera too, which my 2006 doesn't. A good feature for either, and I always use my mirrors unlike a lot of the park by Braille crowd that can't be bothered.

It is actually not that different fuel economy wise than the A8 if you match motor class to motor class--SQ to W12/S8, 4.2 to 3.0T's (3.2 was half step slower). 2.0T or TDI (or low volume Hybrid) better, but std. 2.0T isn't phenomenal by any means. It starts with they are heavy--about same as A8 actually, and even though reasonably designed exterior, it's a comparative brick aerodynamically.

Q5 as of 2013 has the very current electronics, as would a more recent D4. But candidly other than maybe Google Earth overlay to Nav, I still have about 90% of the stuff the 7 year newer Q5 does, and some things like Adaptive Cruise you couldn't even get in at least a 4 banger Q5 at any trim level.

D3 hands down wins on interior quality. And Q5 is very good at its price point. But when they sold new, D3 of course was (adjusted for inflation) like 2x the price point. Thus door detailing, door pockets, dash, leather quality, carpet, and 20 other things are in a while different class. Goofy little stuff too like interior bright trim vent reflections off the side window at certain sun angles (and with a lot of other similar small Audi dashes); you won't find design mistakes like that on a D3. Q5 dash is nice, but its about a half step above Japanese appliance. D3 is different league. Q5 seats are comfortable (we have "sport", though "sport" in most anything than an R8 has been redefined I guess for the "Supersize" crowd. But again, D3's are more substantial, more adjustable, truly designed for bigger guys (I'm about 6'1 and not too bulky). Again Q5 solid, but more like a well thought out seat that a Toyota or someone might want to strive for in an appliance rather than an real performance luxury set up like the D3.

Very useful rear space in Q5. D3 trunk no slouch though either, and way better than huge mistake they made in D4 redesign. Q5 is actually larger in rear than Cayennes as one random metric (look carefully and you will find Porsche somehow omits to say what that volume is...)

I would avoid the 3.2's in general (as used ones). That is ground zero for where the FSI valve fouling issues among probably all the FSI motors out there with some questions. And apparently on 3.2's in is not JUST on the intake side that everybody understands, but also some kind of head passages that tie to smog stuff or something similar. 3.2 was also the six speed (instead of 8), which in that application means not as economical and not as fast. Audi pretty quickly buried that motor in the end (like it did some years earlier with the 2.7T); not a great sign either.

The straight 2.OT is a turbo, so has a bit of lag. Non issue with our Hybrid, since it has extra electric torque from zero RPM and instantly for a 10 second power "boost" type function. 3.0T has been a well regarded motor for a fair number of years now, and solid in Q5. TDI seems to be well liked in Q5 too, though the owners on the boards can sometimes go a bit overboard with their zeal/passion.

Not convinced so far Q5 somehow wins reliability wise over D3. Feels similar to me actually.

If you put any value on boards and forums, this one is more mature and and has more deep knowledge enthusiasts. Q5 board is the typical newer, younger, and sometimes brasher crowd. More focused on new car stuff, wheel sizes, paint and trim color and such than any deep upkeep/maintenance issues. New gets old after a while... Same on AZ for Q5's, and QW board is sleepy .

I have 20's in 255/45 on the Q5 and 275/35 on the W12. A8 is easily the smoother of the two; adaptive suspension really works. I fit RS5 brakes to the Q5 that then kind of needs 20's (due to caliper width) in most wheel fitments, but honestly on that steel suspension sort of set up 19's would be better--despite the Q5 board always slobbering over 20s and the SQ'ers thinking 21 is the hot set up. Since I started with 19's (at 235), I have to admit on that vehicle the deterioration is noticeable, more than I expected since they are still 45's. Wheels weigh a ton BTW--way more than my W12 set up; porker unsprung weight wise. Limiting handling issue on Q5 is the tall height and CoG and suspension, not the tires. Not even sure where it really is on the D3 to be honest; just different leagues again for performance Autobahn burner and tall wagon soccer mobiles. I was at the max on the Autobahn in Q5; to 110 to 115 it was fine and hybrid electric gave it good acceleration. Beyond 115 it was something you really wanted to be alert to handle even on tiniest of Autobahn sweepers. D3 blows all that away by a country kilometer or Autobahn 155+ in the rare moments the traffic opens up. Just different leagues, no matter how souped up you get (SQ's included if mapped against S8 or W12). Newer Q5s like ours are all electric steering. D3's are always hydraulic. Electric is getting better and saves a little gas, but hydraulic typically gets the nod at the margin for feel. For these two anyway, I would call it the same. But to be clear, Q5 has good road feel snd drives well and comfortably in general.

Pre facelift D3 outside mirrors are oh so stylish, and oh so compromised view wise. Q5 mirrors are oh so unstylish elephant ears (literally right off the Q7 yet bigger truck), yet manage to block a lot of side forward visibility. D3 facelift mirrors were better. Both wife and adult daughter complain of Q5 mirror clunky view blocking issues, and both like driving it otherwise.

Net Q5 is compelling at its price point and as a CUV, but it's a very different animal than D3. As a family mobile or empty nester tall ride, it is way ahead of the prior Sienna, T&C, Taurus, etc., but those are more its precursors for buyers 10 and 20 and 25 years ago, not high end sedans. Q5 wins a lot more female buyers too, if relevant (or not) to you. But then one is sometimes grouped with soccer moms (as even Teslas are here in throw away car fashion du jour SF Peninsula), and D3's (or 4's) aren't thought of as such. Not a value judgment, depending on family needs and background. And if that area isn't a plus, there certainly are Q5 flavors that seem to be playing more to the "guy" crowd--TDIs, 3.0T's and SQ's.

BTW, if by chance you are thinking new, I would tend not to. Q5 is due to be replaced in about a year now. I'm sure new one will be nice, but made in Mexico will be a hard sell for a lot of us. When Audi model changes occur, expect a 20% hit on value ON TOP OF annual depreciation as a rule of thumb. Big Audis suck on value retention too, as does the rest of the German heavy metal, but D3 is now well down the depreciation curve. I like facelift versions of Audis when I buy later used (meaning 2013+ in Q5's) or new, but intro date for Q5 replace is now getting pretty close in. If I had bought even in 2014 it would have been on my mind some.