2007 S8 Power Steering Fluid gone!
01-03-2011, 07:05 PM
#21
AudiWorld Super User
By the way, I did buy this on my 2006 W12...
but back when they sold it in early 2007 and only sold it w/ CPO's, it cost...$690. Whether you had a W12, an RS 6 with 30K timing belt intervals, or a 4 banger, all $690. Dieter in marketing engineering who priced that one was long fired with extreme prejudice of course. But, given the parts cost I just spec'ed in the other post, that was obviously a no brainer. Shortly after I bought it, they both upped the price and eliminated the 7th year/75K coverage (where the revised timing belt interval on 4.2's and most other Audi timing belt motors just happens to fall...).
Parenthetical note too--W12's are chain drive cams AND non FSI, so a few good things we have actually are not big bucks timing belt service like the pre-FSI 4.2's, and no valve fouling issues more likely inherently found with FSI motors (later 4.2's and the S8 5.2). Learning about the latter from the FSI based Mini S I recently bought...
Parenthetical note too--W12's are chain drive cams AND non FSI, so a few good things we have actually are not big bucks timing belt service like the pre-FSI 4.2's, and no valve fouling issues more likely inherently found with FSI motors (later 4.2's and the S8 5.2). Learning about the latter from the FSI based Mini S I recently bought...
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 01-03-2011 at 07:10 PM.
01-03-2011, 07:19 PM
#22
AudiWorld Super User
A nuance of what and why you ran into this on an S8...
I had this happen early on with my W12. Basically every time I went gonzo on braking, it threw the warning light. Turned out fluid level was just a bit low as dealer confirmed at a service interval.
I suspect underneath, the reason is both S8's and W12's use brake calipers up front that are twin piston like the 4.2's (at least later ones), BUT that have larger diameters--as in, more internal cylinder volume to fill as pads wear. Meanwhile, if the fluld reservoir isn't sized up accordingly, guess what happens... "Art" in Engineering seems to have missed that one along the way!
Mr. Bally is right that if the reservoir is topped up mid pad life, have to be careful when changing pads. I have since found if you basically fill the reservoir to max possible (up near the brim) when doing a 4 wheel brake job, it should have enough tolerance to deal with the other extreme of lots of pad wear even on the W12's + S8's.
I suspect underneath, the reason is both S8's and W12's use brake calipers up front that are twin piston like the 4.2's (at least later ones), BUT that have larger diameters--as in, more internal cylinder volume to fill as pads wear. Meanwhile, if the fluld reservoir isn't sized up accordingly, guess what happens... "Art" in Engineering seems to have missed that one along the way!
Mr. Bally is right that if the reservoir is topped up mid pad life, have to be careful when changing pads. I have since found if you basically fill the reservoir to max possible (up near the brim) when doing a 4 wheel brake job, it should have enough tolerance to deal with the other extreme of lots of pad wear even on the W12's + S8's.
01-03-2011, 08:02 PM
#23
brake caliper
I had this happen early on with my W12. Basically every time I went gonzo on braking, it threw the warning light. Turned out fluid level was just a bit low as dealer confirmed at a service interval.
I suspect underneath, the reason is both S8's and W12's use brake calipers up front that are twin piston like the 4.2's (at least later ones), BUT that have larger diameters--as in, more internal cylinder volume to fill as pads wear. Meanwhile, if the fluld reservoir isn't sized up accordingly, guess what happens... "Art" in Engineering seems to have missed that one along the way!
Mr. Bally is right that if the reservoir is topped up mid pad life, have to be careful when changing pads. I have since found if you basically fill the reservoir to max possible (up near the brim) when doing a 4 wheel brake job, it should have enough tolerance to deal with the other extreme of lots of pad wear even on the W12's + S8's.
I suspect underneath, the reason is both S8's and W12's use brake calipers up front that are twin piston like the 4.2's (at least later ones), BUT that have larger diameters--as in, more internal cylinder volume to fill as pads wear. Meanwhile, if the fluld reservoir isn't sized up accordingly, guess what happens... "Art" in Engineering seems to have missed that one along the way!
Mr. Bally is right that if the reservoir is topped up mid pad life, have to be careful when changing pads. I have since found if you basically fill the reservoir to max possible (up near the brim) when doing a 4 wheel brake job, it should have enough tolerance to deal with the other extreme of lots of pad wear even on the W12's + S8's.
more pistons in the caliper help pressurize and depressurize faster than a single large piston as well dissipate heat and avoid fluid boiling specially on heavier cars
01-03-2011, 08:08 PM
#24
AudiWorld Super User
Let me try again.
Fluid runs from the master cylinder through the ABS to the brake calipers at the four wheels. The pistons in the front brake calipers of the S8 and W12 are larger than the 4.2 set up (off the top of my head, 36 vs. 32mm perhaps; it's in Bentley). Thus, as the pads wear more fluid is now "stored" out at the calipers; the piston "stroke" extension is itself now a fluid reservoir, and the bigger the piston in a constant twin piston set up, the greater the fluid now there. That has to come from somewhere, which of course is upstream at the reservoir. Thus, from pads new to pads max wear, W12's and S8's will have more fluid drop at the master cylinder reservoir (assuming the same one/capacity) than a 4.2.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 01-03-2011 at 09:04 PM.
01-03-2011, 09:00 PM
#25
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Power steering service update and thoughts on extended AudiCare maintenance
Called my SA just before close of business and it turned out they started on the car earlier than anticipated. He said his tech said my power steering level is fine. I asked the SA to have him to check the air filter while he had it open and he'll do that tomorrow morning. I know I can hear a sound though so I'll ask him to doublecheck and maybe go down there for a drive with him in the car if I get a chance. I'll see if I can record it and if so I'll post it on here.
I'm a quarter German myself and the town I was born in was on German land 30 years prior but I still can't comprehend their pricing policies.
I have no fear with technical stuff but I'm still green at car/engine maintenance. Because of this I tend to be very cautious and hence everything I attempt takes 2 to 10 times as long. I can just imagine attempting the maintenance you mentioned and killing a whole weekend if not more. Besides that, call me crazy but I'm thinking a W12 might not be the best car to learn on. Then there's the time involved in gathering the information or begging auto inclined friends for help (not sure how detailed the Bentley manual is? I would have had it by now along with VCDS if Ross-Tech wasn't closed for the winter break).
On the other hand, I did learn to ride a motorcycle on a '99 Triumph Daytona 955i and my first bike, which I passed the CA DMV skills test on was a 2002 Yamaha R1 AND I'm still alive. Can't say the same for the R1 (RIP, at least it was a track death and she had a good life, 12k miles of twisties in 8 months). I'm just afraid the W12 might end up the same, only a death in my garage would not be as glamorous.
That's correct. Here is the link to Audi's webpage on the prepaid AudiCare Plus maintenance:
http://www.audiusa.com/etc/medialib/...e_brochure.pdf
I spied the internal Audi costs on the paperwork my SA had and they're selling it at $30 over listed cost at the A8 level plan.
The total I came up for parts you listed is $852-$902 -before- tax and shipping, assuming I can find it online or in this forum.
In addition to the above cost, I need to take into account the time it would take -me- to do it. The bentley service circular shows the estimated repair times for the 55k, 65, and 75k service to be 620 (150+80+390, I'm assuming that minutes?):
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/ima....2007.main.pdf
Lets be liberal and say it would take me only 4 times as long as an Audi Tech, all inclusive. That's 40 hours. I have to compare the savings of DIY auto maintenance (along with knowledge gained) against the cost of loosing a full weekend or more working in my field of expertise, the knowledge and career advancement/business opportunities missed, and the money that could have been made.
As I'm sure is true for most of us on this forum, when you compare the price of the extended maintenance against a weeks earnings/business, the AudiCare starts to look like a bargain. Not to mention, what we're really comparing is the difference between the extended maintenance and the price of DIY parts/supplies. (I'm not counting cost of tools needed since that's hopefully an investment that can be used for unexpected repairs).
But most importantly, the girlfriend won't like it if I spend more time with the car than her. On the other hand, spending more time at work is fine because she'll just think that just means nicer vacations, fancier dinners, and more gifts.
The Germans are very perverse in their service parts and maintenance pricing policies. I can say this as I'm part German.
That said, I assume you have a garage but no tools. By your comments here I'll assume you are reasonably mechanically and technically inclined.
If I were you since you are questioning the cost of non-documented maintenance costs to top up a required fluid; I would take the $1550 that you are prepared to spend on another prepaid maintenance plan and buy:
...
That said, I assume you have a garage but no tools. By your comments here I'll assume you are reasonably mechanically and technically inclined.
If I were you since you are questioning the cost of non-documented maintenance costs to top up a required fluid; I would take the $1550 that you are prepared to spend on another prepaid maintenance plan and buy:
...
I have no fear with technical stuff but I'm still green at car/engine maintenance. Because of this I tend to be very cautious and hence everything I attempt takes 2 to 10 times as long. I can just imagine attempting the maintenance you mentioned and killing a whole weekend if not more. Besides that, call me crazy but I'm thinking a W12 might not be the best car to learn on. Then there's the time involved in gathering the information or begging auto inclined friends for help (not sure how detailed the Bentley manual is? I would have had it by now along with VCDS if Ross-Tech wasn't closed for the winter break).
On the other hand, I did learn to ride a motorcycle on a '99 Triumph Daytona 955i and my first bike, which I passed the CA DMV skills test on was a 2002 Yamaha R1 AND I'm still alive. Can't say the same for the R1 (RIP, at least it was a track death and she had a good life, 12k miles of twisties in 8 months). I'm just afraid the W12 might end up the same, only a death in my garage would not be as glamorous.
I think you are getting basically a 55K and 65K minor service and a 75K major service.
...
That's your basic parts bill, plus tax, plus shipping, plus labor (or DIY sweat): Net, on a W12 parts are actually a meaningful % of the bill, so the net for the labor involved isn't that bad. The intake gaskets are probably the biggest hidden cost, but then the 39 qts of oil over three changes is a bit of an eye opener too.
...
That's your basic parts bill, plus tax, plus shipping, plus labor (or DIY sweat): Net, on a W12 parts are actually a meaningful % of the bill, so the net for the labor involved isn't that bad. The intake gaskets are probably the biggest hidden cost, but then the 39 qts of oil over three changes is a bit of an eye opener too.
http://www.audiusa.com/etc/medialib/...e_brochure.pdf
I spied the internal Audi costs on the paperwork my SA had and they're selling it at $30 over listed cost at the A8 level plan.
The total I came up for parts you listed is $852-$902 -before- tax and shipping, assuming I can find it online or in this forum.
In addition to the above cost, I need to take into account the time it would take -me- to do it. The bentley service circular shows the estimated repair times for the 55k, 65, and 75k service to be 620 (150+80+390, I'm assuming that minutes?):
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/ima....2007.main.pdf
Lets be liberal and say it would take me only 4 times as long as an Audi Tech, all inclusive. That's 40 hours. I have to compare the savings of DIY auto maintenance (along with knowledge gained) against the cost of loosing a full weekend or more working in my field of expertise, the knowledge and career advancement/business opportunities missed, and the money that could have been made.
As I'm sure is true for most of us on this forum, when you compare the price of the extended maintenance against a weeks earnings/business, the AudiCare starts to look like a bargain. Not to mention, what we're really comparing is the difference between the extended maintenance and the price of DIY parts/supplies. (I'm not counting cost of tools needed since that's hopefully an investment that can be used for unexpected repairs).
But most importantly, the girlfriend won't like it if I spend more time with the car than her. On the other hand, spending more time at work is fine because she'll just think that just means nicer vacations, fancier dinners, and more gifts.
Last edited by ModestW12; 01-03-2011 at 09:58 PM. Reason: pesky typo's
01-04-2011, 03:50 AM
#26
AudiWorld Super User
To each their own. I am aware of the time value of money by the way. Yet, I find I'd rather drive my A8 on 300-400 mile trips rather than fly for the fun it provides. Not a good use of time or a good value since the flights I choose not to go on are not much more in price than gasoline. Then there's the rental car, the tire wear on the A8, the wear & tear..... you get the idea.
By the way, those tools I speak of have been paid for many times over by use on my mini fleet of three vehicles (until recently 4-RIP '97 Chevy Venture).
By the way, those tools I speak of have been paid for many times over by use on my mini fleet of three vehicles (until recently 4-RIP '97 Chevy Venture).
01-06-2011, 09:48 PM
#27
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To each their own. I am aware of the time value of money by the way. Yet, I find I'd rather drive my A8 on 300-400 mile trips rather than fly for the fun it provides. Not a good use of time or a good value since the flights I choose not to go on are not much more in price than gasoline. Then there's the rental car, the tire wear on the A8, the wear & tear..... you get the idea.
By the way, those tools I speak of have been paid for many times over by use on my mini fleet of three vehicles (until recently 4-RIP '97 Chevy Venture).
By the way, those tools I speak of have been paid for many times over by use on my mini fleet of three vehicles (until recently 4-RIP '97 Chevy Venture).
Problem is I've already stretched myself so thin doing my home kitchen and bathroom remodels myself, not from lack of money but from making residential construction and remodeling a hobby. I want to build my own mansion eventually. The tools and the materials for everything I'm doing isn't cheap either. Luckily I have skilled friends helping, but even then it's a huge time sink.
I plan on keeping this beast, maybe even keep in the family till eventually it will be a classic, so I will eventually start learning DIY maintenance and repairs.
Thanks again for your tool tips.
01-06-2011, 09:58 PM
#28
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Power steering fluid was fine according to SA
Got the car back yesterday and the fluid level was fine. Supposedly the air filters were fine too. I'll still check this myself when the Bentley manual arrives.
The steering related noise I heard, my SA and the shop foreman believe, is a bushing located inside the steering column near the cabin side of the firewall. It only makes the droning sound when I turn left while either stopped or driving under @20 mph. It's been pretty audible in the mornings pulling out of the garage when the car is cold or if it's been sitting for a while and it's just cold weather.
This morning though it was relatively warm and it wasn't very audible when I went for a spin around the dealer parking lot with the SA and we tested it lock to lock.
They seemed pretty confident about what it was and it put my worries at ease. They said the could probably grease it up to make it go away but it would cost me since it's not technically broken. It seems like I only hear it much when it's cold so I just let it be for now.
The steering related noise I heard, my SA and the shop foreman believe, is a bushing located inside the steering column near the cabin side of the firewall. It only makes the droning sound when I turn left while either stopped or driving under @20 mph. It's been pretty audible in the mornings pulling out of the garage when the car is cold or if it's been sitting for a while and it's just cold weather.
This morning though it was relatively warm and it wasn't very audible when I went for a spin around the dealer parking lot with the SA and we tested it lock to lock.
They seemed pretty confident about what it was and it put my worries at ease. They said the could probably grease it up to make it go away but it would cost me since it's not technically broken. It seems like I only hear it much when it's cold so I just let it be for now.
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