Coolant found in engine oil!
01-08-2018, 07:14 PM
#11
AudiWorld Super User
I don't think you should own this car anymore, if you can't work on car and didn't get rid of it when $6k was required. It's an A8 with 185k miles, it's a disposable car. Just drive it until it dies and donate it.
You had 4 years with it, its totally depreciated.
I know people are emotionally attached to their cars, but you need to be frugal. $6k+$8k + more things to come for an 04 with 185k miles... it's not economically sound.
Cheers and good luck,
Louis
You had 4 years with it, its totally depreciated.
I know people are emotionally attached to their cars, but you need to be frugal. $6k+$8k + more things to come for an 04 with 185k miles... it's not economically sound.
Cheers and good luck,
Louis
01-09-2018, 04:37 AM
#12
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Thanks for the feedback guys. For clarification sake, it's a 2008 A8 with 185k on it. The tech tells me the oil is "milky" looking now, but it was quite black the day before the oil change. After oil change I drove it roughly 15-18 miles to the shop that now has it and the oil is now "milky" looking. Again, what puzzles me is the oil/coolant mixing together is symptomatic of head gasket failure, but the car has never overheated in the 4 years I've owned it, temp gauge is dead center upon warm up and does not blow any white exhaust. Additionally, there is no engine light warning as well and frankly, it drives perfectly. I do understand the math though, with this sort of mileage some other major repair is just around the corner. At tis stage I see no reason not to get a 2nd opinion and make a decision from there. Truly appreciate the feedback from this forum!
01-09-2018, 06:57 AM
#13
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Is something wrong with your eyes? You can't see the milky coolant or oil? So the question if the milky liquid existed before the cooler replacement would be irrelevant? Take a picture of the milky fluid yourself. If you can't check oil, coolant and VISUALLY inspect the car, you should get rid of it.
Read to find out besides head gasket, how else water can be mixed with oil? Through which venues?
Cheers,
Louis
Read to find out besides head gasket, how else water can be mixed with oil? Through which venues?
Cheers,
Louis
Last edited by ltooz_a6_a8_q7; 01-09-2018 at 07:14 AM.
01-10-2018, 01:05 PM
#14
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Need to offer some feedback for Itooz A6 A8 Q7. No, I didn't see the milky oil because once the initial shop did the oil change I IMMEDIATELY drove car to the Audi indy shop. The indy shop didn't get to my car until the next day and that's when I was told the oil was milky. Perhaps I should have checked the oil it once I dropped the car off with the Audi specialist , but it was dropped off at night and I had a pressing appointment to get to. I've been in a few sports car clubs, raced Z-cars in SCCA sanctioned events in the 70's and have personally done quite a bit of work on the cars I've owned. I'm meticulous about oil changes and checking fluid etc... so yes, I do the appropriate visual AND physical checks. The milky oil developed AFTER the oil cooler was replaced but I'm leaning on getting a second opinion with another Audi specialist and seeing what he has to say. Engine runs too well for me to think the engine needs to be scrapped.
01-10-2018, 06:35 PM
#15
AudiWorld Super User
If I were you, instead of thinking about replacing the new engine, I would take it back to the guys who did the oil cooler, pay for a new cooler pipe replacement. This time buy the aluminum one. Did you tell the new guys that you just had the cooler removed and installed? If they didn't think it was the job done wrong, I wouldn't let them to touch my car. I don't know how much they charged you for the job, but this time, I would try the dealership, at least they may have some reputation to up hold or not... No one cares or be honest enough to think they have missed something in the process because they're there to make a living. Take it back and see what they say. It's your luck this happened, but recouped and do it right this time. If the same guys agree to open it up, I would be there to see the result when he take the cooler out.
I just realized you have another thread with heating problems. Don't you think the milky coolant has something to do with it? Why keep flushing? You fix this problem, you'll fix the heat problems. Sometimes it helps to understand about the engine cooling and heating system.
Cheers and good luck,
Louis
I just realized you have another thread with heating problems. Don't you think the milky coolant has something to do with it? Why keep flushing? You fix this problem, you'll fix the heat problems. Sometimes it helps to understand about the engine cooling and heating system.
Cheers and good luck,
Louis
Last edited by ltooz_a6_a8_q7; 01-10-2018 at 07:13 PM.
01-18-2018, 05:48 AM
#16
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Armchair, but I am suspicious of the diagnosis. From having done head gaskets after having them blow several times on old Audis, the oil typically turns into a milky emulsion. You often find it on the underside of the oil filler cap and/or when you look in the fill hole. Black oil is common by a few thousand miles, more so on an older motor, and is typically just accumulated blowby byproducts from normal combustion. See picture below of a decent example of the oil and water emulsion when it is actually a likely head gasket issue.
Head gaskets can blow a variety of ways--between oil and combustion chamber, between water and combustion chamber, between oil and water, or sometimes all of them I suppose. If between oil and water and you have the coolant loss, then you usually find the emulsion. If between water and combustion chamber, you expect the steam cloud (especially on a colder day) and likely the overflow bottle to bubble and eventually rupture under pressure. I haven't had oil to combustion chamber, but I would expect smoke or obvious pressure into the cankcase you would find opening the oil cap. Depending on where it blows, you most often just find one of the symptoms, not all of them. Thus emulsion in oil and no steam = the oil to combustion chamber one, and steam and not the others is the water to combustion chamber one, and so on.
If still losing coolant, as I may have posted in your prior threads IIRC, do the thorough examination. 4.2's are not known to blow head gaskets most generally, so don't jump early to that conclusion. Oil being black is not really even close to a diagnostic here, and absence of emulsion (if true)would tend to tell me you are on wrong track. Drips to ground are NOT the only diagnostic for ordinary leaks either. It can easily burn off if leaking at hot spots, in which case you look for the pink residue. See prior thread replies... It will burn off if it drips to many parts of motor, if it is leaking slowly at various parts of radiator or even at the heater valve block. I have seen all three do that. In addition the underneath covers are such it can hide the leak often, and in places like heater valve it can both hide in plenum area and also drain out in non obvious areas.
Head gaskets can blow a variety of ways--between oil and combustion chamber, between water and combustion chamber, between oil and water, or sometimes all of them I suppose. If between oil and water and you have the coolant loss, then you usually find the emulsion. If between water and combustion chamber, you expect the steam cloud (especially on a colder day) and likely the overflow bottle to bubble and eventually rupture under pressure. I haven't had oil to combustion chamber, but I would expect smoke or obvious pressure into the cankcase you would find opening the oil cap. Depending on where it blows, you most often just find one of the symptoms, not all of them. Thus emulsion in oil and no steam = the oil to combustion chamber one, and steam and not the others is the water to combustion chamber one, and so on.
If still losing coolant, as I may have posted in your prior threads IIRC, do the thorough examination. 4.2's are not known to blow head gaskets most generally, so don't jump early to that conclusion. Oil being black is not really even close to a diagnostic here, and absence of emulsion (if true)would tend to tell me you are on wrong track. Drips to ground are NOT the only diagnostic for ordinary leaks either. It can easily burn off if leaking at hot spots, in which case you look for the pink residue. See prior thread replies... It will burn off if it drips to many parts of motor, if it is leaking slowly at various parts of radiator or even at the heater valve block. I have seen all three do that. In addition the underneath covers are such it can hide the leak often, and in places like heater valve it can both hide in plenum area and also drain out in non obvious areas.
01-18-2018, 08:12 AM
#17
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I wanted to respond to you privately because of my respect for your feedback. Car is at shop that does most of my work and owner is a former Audi dealership tech. He ha a good reputation. He feels I should replace engine and he can get one with 55K on it. Replacement and lab or will run me $8K or so. Daunting for me. His logic is doing headwork will run $4k-$5K and we still may not have completely fixed problem. He feels that would be risky. Putting replacement engine in would remedy my engine woes and give me more life for car (he feels another 100K) . My concern is the history of car, even maintained well as I have, is running me $5K a year. The oil is now "milky" and current shop is telling me having car sit with coolant in oil for last week is not good and tis is pushing him to tell me to replace engine as well. I am thinking I need to seek a second opinion even though I like shop car is now at and owner is actually whom I bought car from 3-4 years ago.
1. recheck everything extermal to motor where there is an oil and water intersection. Oil cooler would be most obvious, even if replaced. I would suspect a part defect or install error there before head gasket probability wise.
2. pull plugs. If a head gasket, it goes back to where the leak is in terms of value of diagnostic. I have never had one solely between oil and water, and it again seems very unlikely. Ones from the combustion chamber to either oil or water or both are the likely ones, simply because of constant high compression pressures. If you have a head gasket or similar issue involving any leaking with combustion chamber, one of the plugs will typically look different than the others. Most commonly, it looks steam cleaned, which it is. On most head gaskets I have had blow, I find a steam cleaned plug. But then they blow in the common combustion chamber to somewhere else, and also sometimes have the oil emulsion look and/or the over pressurized cooling system. I view a steam cleaned plug as definitive confirmation for a head gasket failure if accompanied by any of the other symptoms, and then pull head to fix. Can also technically be a cracked head, but have never had one in practice.
I personally would not be concerned about coolant effect inside motor if there is an issue. After all, same metal inside motor is variously meant to deal with lifetime of oil or coolant immersion to start with. The two combined don't seem like it creates any kind of particularly corrosive substance, at least not over a limited number of weeks or even few months. I would be more concerned with the flushing when done with work. That probably just means a couple of cycles of oil/water change and maybe a chemical cleaner on way to being done.
Agreed if you end up doing it, a replacement modest miles junkyard engine may be most cost effective. Having said that though, I have done head work completely in the car, including a 2000 A6 4.2. To be clear, I pulled that for internal oil burning issues not related to head gasket. Confirmed 4.2 head gasket failures on the board remain essentially zero AFAIK. On a 2008 4.2 if a head is pulled, you have to deal with cam chain drive (instead of belt drive like older D3's or my 2000). I don't know if anyone has done a chain drive one with motor in. Also on head gaskets, you really need know which side before going after an approach like that to be cost effective.
Even with junkyard motor, backing up to altitude you need to weigh if it is even cost effective, At value of car, may not be. Again, if it were mine, I would probably first drive more, and honestly consider the admittedly half *** solutions like various sealer chemicals out there. Sort of a "nothing to lose" calculation once you decide motor is effectively blown.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 01-18-2018 at 08:22 AM.
01-19-2018, 02:50 AM
#18
Hi,
Sounds like a terrible situation to be in, especially after getting the oil cooler done and then finding it giving you more bother. However, on a more positive note, I experienced something similar myself. My Audi A4 was diagnosed with a head gasket failure as there was oil in coolant and coolant in the oil. In my eyes the diagnosis was too quick and easy and too convenient, so I got a friend who works for Audi to look at it (hes the type that you do not go to as he refuses to do any work outside of his job Monday to Friday unless your his mate or bloody desperate). Anyways, he took the car, and an hour later had it diagnosed as a leak between oil pipe and water pipe in the oil cooler. This was replaced, as with the oil and coolant, and no further issues.
The fact that work was carried out in that area would draw me to that area immediately. It truly sounds like a seal is missing or pinched. Very easy to do and just too coincidental for my liking. Even the best of garages can make mistakes. Its whether they admit to them and rectifie them that makes the difference.
Sounds like a terrible situation to be in, especially after getting the oil cooler done and then finding it giving you more bother. However, on a more positive note, I experienced something similar myself. My Audi A4 was diagnosed with a head gasket failure as there was oil in coolant and coolant in the oil. In my eyes the diagnosis was too quick and easy and too convenient, so I got a friend who works for Audi to look at it (hes the type that you do not go to as he refuses to do any work outside of his job Monday to Friday unless your his mate or bloody desperate). Anyways, he took the car, and an hour later had it diagnosed as a leak between oil pipe and water pipe in the oil cooler. This was replaced, as with the oil and coolant, and no further issues.
The fact that work was carried out in that area would draw me to that area immediately. It truly sounds like a seal is missing or pinched. Very easy to do and just too coincidental for my liking. Even the best of garages can make mistakes. Its whether they admit to them and rectifie them that makes the difference.
01-29-2018, 10:17 AM
#20
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Appreciate ALL the feedback. Fell in love with these cars for the wrong reason - aesthetics. After owning two A8's I've learned the hard way that (at least for me) a car must not only look good, but be pretty reliable as well. Over the last few years I've watched several manufacturers step up their game in both these areas and I'm convinced that it's time to move on to something which better fits my wallet. These cars are way over engineered and I've had too many techs tell me that once their out of warranty to move on unless you have a fat wallet or can diagnose and work on the cars yourself. This has been an expensive journey, but hopefully I can save some other unsuspecting soul from having to possible take out a second mortgage just to keep a c
ar on the road :-).
ar on the road :-).