dvs_dave

Looks like the EPA have found similar underhand behavior with the emissions system on the VAG 3.0 TDi V6 engine too.

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-had-d...too-1740068495

Might be a good time to go to your local friendly Audi dealer and bid him in the ***** on that nice CPO D4 TDI that's been sitting on his lot collecting dust.

richard-tx

All of that Audi diesel stuff can be remedied with a firmware upgrade. 5 minutes with their Vag tool and all is well. The dealers won't get stuck so there will be no special deals to be had.

MP4.2+6.0

I think this will turn out to be a pretty big deal for Audi in the U.S. The move of this from being compartmentalized with the 4 bangers to now the 3.0TDI's is big from an Audi/dealer perspective. The other was largely a U.S. "VW issue" and affected only a few marginal sales of A3's. This hits them right between the eyes, particularly with the highest volume Q5, but also the A6, A7, Q7 and (low volume) A8. If it's a dealer that co-sells Porsche, it hits the high profit Cayenne too. Probably scratch an early intro of a (previously predicted) North America TDI Macan for that matter.

If it turns out there is fire with the smoke, then a reasonable guess is at a bare minimum the motors will need more urea; if more serious where they need pull down the exhaust temps (a big indicator for NOx), you can guess variously boost getting dialed down and or fueling cut back at peak. Either can hit power and fuel consumption. Now the interest level declines and the legal damages overhang both mount. Sure, might be a 5 (or maybe 60) minute flash. But as soon as you hit power or fuel economy, the damages (both hard cash financial and intangible customer loyalty) mount. Worse, arguably in some states like CA with forced buy back (aka lemon) laws, they might get boxed into owner refunds--a huge poison pill nightmare.

Too early to know and VW/Audi denies it on the 3.0TDI's--frankly with the credibility of Sergeant Schultz to me these days. But won't surprise me at all to see brand damage and some sliding sales, now most obviously for anything labelled TDI. Predictably leads to discounts and incentives, which are already reportedly rampant on VW's, and most heavily (like $12K) actually on the Touareg 3.0TDI even before this hit the fan. I owned a 5000 (stick) when the unintended acceleration fiasco came on hot and heavy; the incentives and ultimately quasi fire sales got big. A8 TDI's are rounding error on dealer lots compared to Q5's and even old body Q7's on their lame duck last legs, but I would expect it to be pretty across the board if they decide they have to move them. Since VW's whole market cap is actually less than the high end of the damages estimates before the 3.0 accusations, and China is softening for them (Audi's biggest overall market now), coupled with the union and Saxony (Germany) pressure to maintain jobs, I expect they will feel the pressure big time to move product. Full prior supply both on tap and flowing through a 3 month long pipeline meets less demand; economic consequence of lower price to cross the market is rational result.

Net, I think it's serious and implication of the 3.0TDI pulls Audi much more into it in the U.S.. Previously VAG (corporate) might have pulled it out of the huge mess they are already in with a capital raise (they have about $30 billion max in available liquidity IIRC) and/or maybe a Fiat/Chrysler style Ferrari minority percentage spin of something at the margin like a Bugatti, Ducati or Bentley. Might be a lot more painful now. Farthest fetched...how about an Apple autonomous D5 A8! Hell will likely freeze over in Ingolstadt first, but this isn't going to go away cheap or easy. Existing owners will likely suffer (and look for compensation); used and sale buyers may have an opportunity.

dvs_dave

Maybe so, but it will come at the expense of fuel economy or power/torque. The core USP of diesels.

As MP4 said, the reputational damage has been done. Rightly or wrongly, Joe Shmoe will simply give anything with a VAG TDi badge on it a pass due to the stigma. That means dealers will give terrible trade in values, or be looking to dump them off their lots before a stop sale order is issued. That means a buyers market.

Be interesting to see if this goes as far as their marine engine versions? Mercury Marine use marinized VAG automotive Diesel engines in their boat power plant packages, right up to the 4.2 TDi V8.

Do you can get the VAG 4.2 TDi in the US, just it has to be in a boat.

MP4.2+6.0

Porsche USA pulled the Cayenne TDI off the market yesterday FWIW, and apparently Audi announced the same for its 3.0TDI's today. The Porsche one is a press release own their site, here: http://press.porsche.com/news/pdf/20...nne_Diesel.pdf I can't find the Audi one yet. But, if you go to try to build a D4 TDI A8L on the Audi USA website, it's now gone. Only the 3.0 and 4.0T gas are still there. Here is a press story about VW and Audi: Volkswagen Suspends Sales of Audi, VW Diesels Cited by EPA - Bloomberg Business

If you go over to the Q5 board, there are multiple threads going and huge numbers of responses. Given that is their highest volume seller among all Audis now (more than the A4 these days), it's a big and not happy crowd.

the_duke

I don't understand why they are so upset. But I really could care less about emissions.

Pothole5000

Because I'd like for my kids to see the mountains, and keep New Orleans above sea level.

Did you ever travel to L.A. Before all of the smog regulations or Beijing now, all you could see was the air, not the view.

Mike911A8

I'm guessing government and some environmental groups delighted. Billions of dollars for government coffers, and diesel no longer so strong verses hybrids and electrics.

MP4.2+6.0

Sober argument against the idea BTW. That is, besides that Audi pulled the TDI's the other day from any further sales, and pulled them off Audi USA website:

That is, go over to D4 board and try to find squat about this. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Nichts. Look at/for other end of spectrum too--hyper performance side. You can no longer even order a 2016 US S8 with 520 HP; the Plus is coming at 605HP to the USA, and both will confusingly be 2016's apparently. Again, little recognition of it, understanding of likely pricing specific to US, etc. I'm the one who asked the question there some weeks ago about the US order guide, but again little recognition of import. Meantime over on the Q5 board they are churning TDI angst so fast your head spins--posts w/ dozens of replies in a day, one over another.

Continues to worry me that the D4 has little following among the enthusiasts. A few of the names I recognize as D3 refugees. I continue to think of one, and the newest ones with the right equipment are particularly nice. But one of my top reasons against has become lack of any real following. In longer term likely to reflect yet more in resale too, which is already sliding badly---obviously on the early ones, but now even on the ones just a year or two old. Usual big Audi pattern, but this one going in seems to have a shallow fan base. Sure its a specialty board, enthusiast oriented. But, should be a core of your fan base. Tesla has extracted its toll too, particularly in markets like here in CA but now even in Europe. All not good omens--unless you really love the model and are planning to hold long term where depreciation bath is less--like my 10 year old W12. Hunch though is D5 is going to be a bigger change than D4 was. Obvious change in state of art dash electronics and crisper styling, but also likely to have major liposuction weight job, maybe trend to partial electric motors for AWD in a basic rethink of quattro, etc.

Audi dealers have been quite happy for a while, but I suspect w/ TDI taint things will be a changing. Q5 is ground zero as their biggest seller, but it plays into oft co located or owned Porsche dealers w/ Cayennes, the hugely long in tooth Q7 that still moves 3x the volume of A8's but is to be momentarily replaced, the A6 and 7, etc. Figure probably most all the TDI's on lease will now be coming back over next several years. That will be a big supply bump across the line depressing the marque in general and for TDIs that previously tended to have higher resale values.

The spinning Audi USA Exec. VP boasting of Season of Audi momentum and all may not quite get yet that the EPA hunting guns now effectively have them right in the crosshairs-- since the heart of US 3.0 TDI sales are not VW but rather Audi (and Cayenne). Different kind of season...

911 Crazy

Doesn't this site have a P & C (Politics and Controversy) thread somewhere?