Mister Bally

A diesel A8 would make a nice Winter car for me. But not for a Summer cruise.

richard-tx

I think you mean that you couldn't care less...but I can understand your feelings. There are so many contradictions is the EPA rulings and mandates and even some downright lies that one has to question everything the EPA says. The addition of up to 10% ethanol in the gas has reduced gas mileage by almost 20%. How is it that burning more gasoline reduces emissions? This is almost like saying "Save a tree. Burn a forest today".

In the "things you see when you don't have your camera" department; several years ago I was walking in downtown Chicago and this van went by pumping out smoke because the engine was burning oil. It was remarkable because of the cash for clunkers, and other efforts yet this van was laying down a minor smoke screen behind it. The name on the doors said "EPA" and it had USG plates.

My feeling is that this whole EPA/VAG/Diesel issue will quickly fade and that the public's acceptance of diesel will become even stronger. Diesel is a good alternative to gas what with higher mileage (27% more in a A8 with a 3L diesel) , as well as other advantages.

I think that there is one question that hasn't been asked.

When the new firmware for the VAG diesels is installed, what will happen to performance and mileage? My guess is that performance and mileage will both suffer.

In the EPA's defense, it has helped air pollution in major cities but the greatest cleanup in Chicago occurred between 1970 and 1980. It used to be that the pollutant levels were so high that I would get a headache on ozone alert days. By 1980 I didn't get headaches and the air was much clearer. Dallas on the other hand had a major problem 20 years ago. When I moved to DFW, there were cars on the road that were running so poorly that they were backfiring as they cruised at highway speeds. It took a few years but all of those cars are gone.

Anyway the bottom line to the topic is that neither Audi nor the EPA will permit cars to be sold equipped with the original firmware. As a result, there will be no smoking hot deals to be had because the firmware needs to be upgraded. This is like saying that an A8 is worth less because the MMI software has not been upgraded.

haggisuk

You are indeed correct, once remapped the performance and economy will be impacted, by how much? we will just have to wait and see.

It would be interesting to know where the balance is because if the mpg goes down then the fact that you produced less nox produced per gallon is negated by the fact you had to burn more to get there?

Quite frankly I find the whole thing stinks of hypocrisy the US is one of the biggest polluters on the planet.

Long term I don't see an easy way to have you cake and eat it, for too long you guys have ran around in big displacement cars and I'm one of them. We either accept the fact that we pollute more than frugal little cars and shut up about it or climb out of these large cc engined cars/trucks and save the planet.

MP4.2+6.0

Too get a sense technically of what the issues are with the 3.0TDIs, see the relevant page from the EPA letter below. Whole letter is here: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...2015-11-02.pdf Frankly a whole lot more information and specificity there than from the hand waving, Sergeant Schultz we know nothing Audi/VW corporate damage control. And if we did it know or do anything, it was only some rogue underling.

As far as the letter, note the references to injector timing, EGR flow and fuel pressure. Goes right to the heart of performance and economy most likely, and per the measurements showed up to a 9x delta in emissions. Way more technically than the "Season of Audi" US executive apologists and marketing spin show have offered as far as real information in their blanket denials on the 3.0TDI. Never mind they also just found another bunch of vehicles, mostly in Europe, and some maybe gas, that had issues and for which they set aside another $2bill in corporate change.

If the letter is true, also consider technically at altitude what is going on--not just some programming oversight, but a conscious evasion decision seemingly implemented. Very bad ethics, judgment, leadership and oversight in my book; stupidity longer term and image wise for the brand. I grew up in the 60s and early 70s when NOx was rampant--early EGR and lowering compression ratios is what first got it better in check. You couldn't even get near a (not even LA) freeway overpass on a still air warm and hazy day riding your bike without immediately feeling it in your eyes, nose and throat. Nasty stuff.

Jack88

I keep seeing Audi commercials still with the tagline 'Truth in Engineering' attached. I think they ought to come up with a new slogan, don't you think?

Pothole5000

From what I can remember, Jetta TDI's are rated at 46mpg on the highway, but people say they can get 55 regularly. So by making up to 40 times the emissions, they gain 20% better millage. I'd assume the that's not enough of an increase to make up for the 40x more NoX.

Secondly, this country is all about having your cake and eating it too!
I'm betting this whole ordeal will make the EPA grow some teeth and get auto makers to push their engineers harder. We now live in a world where Dodge makes a 707hp car that is daily driver reliable, gets ok millage and is California emissions legal. There is no reason to give up on reform just because we used to have lax emissions laws.

dvs_dave

Wether or not they come up with an acceptable fix, the reputational damage is done which is what counts. Outside of the likes of enthusiasts like us no one will care about the fix. Joe Public just won't bother buying them as the trust is gone. Audi if anyone should know about this. They almost lost their US business in the 80's due to the unintended acceleration scandal, and that was proven to be a fabrication by 60 minutes. The buying public didn't care then, but now with an actual intentional misrepresentation, you think the public will somehow be more lenient?

I really think this is the lid and a couple of nails in the coffin for diesel cars in the US, and not just for VAG. In a land where gas is cheaper than branded bottled water, the level of complexity and expense manufacturers have to go to, to meet (or not in this case) emissions in the US for a few extra mpg is ludicrous. Take into account the facts that diesel is more expensive than gas, is much less readily available, and US market models have lower performance than the Euro equivalents, the case for them is just untenable. In the US they are at best a novelty as they are a new "thing", however they make no sense on any rational level.

MP4.2+6.0

The scandal unfortunately may indirectly also put pressure on the more powerful variants a lot of us like in U.S., though not particularly for used buyers for a long time. The various TDI's, rigged for emissions testing though they were, all go into the CAFE equation. All averaged across VAG, Audi, Porsche, Bentley, included. Has to come out in the wash somewhere though for future product mix--that is besides the now back fines Europe is pretty much telling them they will be paying (there, CO2 based but that is basically a proxy for fuel economy). Thus each fewer high mileage Jetta or Golf that gets sold means some number less high power, lower mileage Audi or Porsche or whatever. Every Q7 now shipped 3.0T instead of TDI, another knock to the average, etc. Economy has been going up with a variety of technologies and some weight control on occasion, but so have the mandated numbers.

haggisuk

Pushing for progress is a good thing and I'm all for it. As for your 700 Hp dodge I would love to see the epa tear into it with the same vigor that vw is getting at the moment. I would be very surprised if that happened, call me sceptical but when it comes to the US car manufactures I think they turn a blind eye.

I really do feel that if the EPA continue with the investigations and test all manufacturers with diesel cars then the same will come to light, maybe not defeat software but certainly emissions way over what they say they are.

Either way if it promotes progress and honesty then that's all good.

Jack88

I doubt they turn any more of a blind eye to Dodge than anyone else. An investigation like the one into VW makes waves and cost money. Any manufacturer would get this treatment if they got caught. Whether it be explosion prone gas tanks, flip happy SUV's, or shrapnel spewing airbags, the American government investigates them appropriately regardless of the company. I grant you, it is handled differently when it's a part of the government mishandling things. Look at the problems with the VA, it was a flash in the pan in the news despite the seriousness of the proven allegations.