RSE retrofit: need a +12V signal in sync with the MOST ring
08-02-2016, 07:38 AM
#11
My problem is that I have sound with no video. There is no possible way to have video with no sound, in the way the electrical installation is implemented on Audis.
08-02-2016, 09:32 AM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
FWIW, on basic question of whether this makes sense even if it is technologically possible to solve:
I had the W12 with factory RSE. Yet, when I would use VCDS and had to have ignition on, I would start get the power management system codes if I went past 15 or 20 minutes. Over time I learned to turn off anything I didn't need while running it if I didn't want to pull out battery charger--or clear another set of power codes that hit the better part of half a dozen modules. Thus I turned off the HVAC (fan), the seat fan if I had it on, the DRL's, the auto on headlights if I was in the garage, etc. AND, I lowered the MMI screen to turn off display.
Indirectly, I realized that MMI screen alone seemed to be a big power suck. RSE is essentially that x 2, and just for screen. Not sure if one or the other is LED vs. LCD. Rear screens sort of look a little more like (lower power) LCD's. Even for audio/music, it has the built in time delay shut down mechanism, which is not as long as a movie let alone even a TV show. On the new D4 I have, I notice the shut down time even without RSE and probably lower power suck MMI screen has been reduced as well.
My kids are out of house now but even so it seems like iPads and phones w/ streaming or storage is where it has gone. The RSE screens for the 2013 Q5 literally are still in the box. I liked the way they were flushed in to the W12 headrests though. By D4 with both the clunky exposed screens and the march of technology I passed.
FWIW if it helps, in USA trailer module not only sits in the same place as RSE module (under the battery) but is literally the same part #. Trailer module just has a Westfalia sticker glued over Audi sticker; I know from peeling it off. You have to rewire the two plugs with the trailer harness to retrofit for towing. That wiring in turn ties into some other changes to wiring at the fuse panels in trunk and you add some fuses/power feeds to the panel near battery, probably for the direct power that is part of the 14 point would euro plug as well as to actually feed the power consumed by the trailer lighting when the control box tells it to. Thus, control box itself is basically a big relay that is reading the signals from various (LED) light feeds in vehicle. As pointed out though, in USA at least RSE doesn't work w/ car off. It actually can only co exist with trailer if you unplug the control module for one or the other. If both are plugged in even with nothing running, it drains battery in 30-60 minutes to where you have to jump start the car. Parts listing also didn't show the Westfalia as available for a W12, I suspect maybe because of the RSE weirdness since RSE is W12 standard. Once I realized the two control units had to be plugged in only one at a time--and that the set up does not support fully LED trailer lighting--it actually towed great as well. But no video while towing, or at least very risky if you forgot to unplug the second module as soon as you shut car down.
I had the W12 with factory RSE. Yet, when I would use VCDS and had to have ignition on, I would start get the power management system codes if I went past 15 or 20 minutes. Over time I learned to turn off anything I didn't need while running it if I didn't want to pull out battery charger--or clear another set of power codes that hit the better part of half a dozen modules. Thus I turned off the HVAC (fan), the seat fan if I had it on, the DRL's, the auto on headlights if I was in the garage, etc. AND, I lowered the MMI screen to turn off display.
Indirectly, I realized that MMI screen alone seemed to be a big power suck. RSE is essentially that x 2, and just for screen. Not sure if one or the other is LED vs. LCD. Rear screens sort of look a little more like (lower power) LCD's. Even for audio/music, it has the built in time delay shut down mechanism, which is not as long as a movie let alone even a TV show. On the new D4 I have, I notice the shut down time even without RSE and probably lower power suck MMI screen has been reduced as well.
My kids are out of house now but even so it seems like iPads and phones w/ streaming or storage is where it has gone. The RSE screens for the 2013 Q5 literally are still in the box. I liked the way they were flushed in to the W12 headrests though. By D4 with both the clunky exposed screens and the march of technology I passed.
FWIW if it helps, in USA trailer module not only sits in the same place as RSE module (under the battery) but is literally the same part #. Trailer module just has a Westfalia sticker glued over Audi sticker; I know from peeling it off. You have to rewire the two plugs with the trailer harness to retrofit for towing. That wiring in turn ties into some other changes to wiring at the fuse panels in trunk and you add some fuses/power feeds to the panel near battery, probably for the direct power that is part of the 14 point would euro plug as well as to actually feed the power consumed by the trailer lighting when the control box tells it to. Thus, control box itself is basically a big relay that is reading the signals from various (LED) light feeds in vehicle. As pointed out though, in USA at least RSE doesn't work w/ car off. It actually can only co exist with trailer if you unplug the control module for one or the other. If both are plugged in even with nothing running, it drains battery in 30-60 minutes to where you have to jump start the car. Parts listing also didn't show the Westfalia as available for a W12, I suspect maybe because of the RSE weirdness since RSE is W12 standard. Once I realized the two control units had to be plugged in only one at a time--and that the set up does not support fully LED trailer lighting--it actually towed great as well. But no video while towing, or at least very risky if you forgot to unplug the second module as soon as you shut car down.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 08-02-2016 at 11:22 AM.
08-02-2016, 10:23 AM
#13
AudiWorld Senior Member
There is a terminal 15 supply on the parking module, but I really think you need to consider how your going to go about what your trying to achieve.
If you pursue the parking module route I recommend you use a relay to switch terminal 30 so you don't load the supply to the parking module.
Fuses are also required
If you pursue the parking module route I recommend you use a relay to switch terminal 30 so you don't load the supply to the parking module.
Fuses are also required
08-08-2016, 02:46 PM
#14
at last!
Hi,
Thank you for your detailed and pertinent answers, but before anything else, I want to be more specific because I think I didn't make myself clear.
I do NOT want to have the DVD changer powered on permanently so I can watch movies in the car with the engine turned off until the battery is depleted. This would be a nonsense. Why will I do such a thing, when I can watch them more comfortable on my big screen in my house, or on my laptop? In this part of the world you can't even stay in the car with HVAC turned off because it's either too cold or too hot, depending on the season.
I only want the DVD changer to power on when all multimedia systems are powering on (MMI, sound system and everything else on the MOST ring) and to power off when all multimedia systems are powering off. This is logical, isn't it? After all, the DVD changer is also part of the multimedia system, be it on the MOST ring or not. I also want the DVD changer to power on when the other devices are powered on because it is a pass-through device for the video signal (video signal from TV tuner passes through it to the head unit so if it is powered off, the MMI won't receive video signal from TV tuner). This is also logical. In fact, it's illogical the way RSE is set up from the factory - powered on from terminal 15. I think they installed it in this way because the entire system is not genuine Audi, it's made by Alpine so Audi had to adapt it on-the-fly. Yes, they assigned OEM part numbers, but this may be only to help the customer to order replacement parts, however the units don't have Audi firmware, they have Alpine firmware.
At last, I want to set it up this way because it bothers me when I park the car and turn off the engine and suddenly I get no signal while still hearing/watching the news on tv. I should get no signal only after I remove the key from the ignition, and when the screen closes and the other units actually turn off. In the way it was set up, I had to let the engine run until the news I was currently watching was finished.
So, to be clear: I want to set it up this way because this is the way it should be; this is the proper way to power it on.
Now, I have some good news. I finally found the wire that gives me +12V signal only when the MOST ring devices are up and running. That means +12V from the moment I put the key in the ignition or I press the volume button, until several minutes after I remove the key from the ignition or I long press the volume button.
That wire is in the cable that goes from the MMI screen to the MMI controller (head unit). I overlooked it at first, because that is a hard place to reach so it's very hard to measure, and when I looked in the manual of electrical diagrams, it showed no +12V, only a screened cable so I was sure it is a data-only cable. I also overlooked it because I was sure that when you push the button to close the display, the power of the actual screen is cut off, but I was wrong - the power is permanently on as long as the head unit is also powered on.
So when I examined carefully, I found that MMI screen has no connection other than the screened cable, so it had to be powered on by a wire on that cable.
Ladies and gentlemen, that wire is the blue wire located at pin #1 in the MMI-display cable. Be careful, it is quite thin. I attached a picture, it may help others.
Be aware, that wire should only be used as a signal to a relay (or relay command or controlling switch or anything you may call it). Do not attempt to use it to power any other equipment directly, because it won't handle heavy load.
Thank you for your detailed and pertinent answers, but before anything else, I want to be more specific because I think I didn't make myself clear.
I do NOT want to have the DVD changer powered on permanently so I can watch movies in the car with the engine turned off until the battery is depleted. This would be a nonsense. Why will I do such a thing, when I can watch them more comfortable on my big screen in my house, or on my laptop? In this part of the world you can't even stay in the car with HVAC turned off because it's either too cold or too hot, depending on the season.
I only want the DVD changer to power on when all multimedia systems are powering on (MMI, sound system and everything else on the MOST ring) and to power off when all multimedia systems are powering off. This is logical, isn't it? After all, the DVD changer is also part of the multimedia system, be it on the MOST ring or not. I also want the DVD changer to power on when the other devices are powered on because it is a pass-through device for the video signal (video signal from TV tuner passes through it to the head unit so if it is powered off, the MMI won't receive video signal from TV tuner). This is also logical. In fact, it's illogical the way RSE is set up from the factory - powered on from terminal 15. I think they installed it in this way because the entire system is not genuine Audi, it's made by Alpine so Audi had to adapt it on-the-fly. Yes, they assigned OEM part numbers, but this may be only to help the customer to order replacement parts, however the units don't have Audi firmware, they have Alpine firmware.
At last, I want to set it up this way because it bothers me when I park the car and turn off the engine and suddenly I get no signal while still hearing/watching the news on tv. I should get no signal only after I remove the key from the ignition, and when the screen closes and the other units actually turn off. In the way it was set up, I had to let the engine run until the news I was currently watching was finished.
So, to be clear: I want to set it up this way because this is the way it should be; this is the proper way to power it on.
Now, I have some good news. I finally found the wire that gives me +12V signal only when the MOST ring devices are up and running. That means +12V from the moment I put the key in the ignition or I press the volume button, until several minutes after I remove the key from the ignition or I long press the volume button.
That wire is in the cable that goes from the MMI screen to the MMI controller (head unit). I overlooked it at first, because that is a hard place to reach so it's very hard to measure, and when I looked in the manual of electrical diagrams, it showed no +12V, only a screened cable so I was sure it is a data-only cable. I also overlooked it because I was sure that when you push the button to close the display, the power of the actual screen is cut off, but I was wrong - the power is permanently on as long as the head unit is also powered on.
So when I examined carefully, I found that MMI screen has no connection other than the screened cable, so it had to be powered on by a wire on that cable.
Ladies and gentlemen, that wire is the blue wire located at pin #1 in the MMI-display cable. Be careful, it is quite thin. I attached a picture, it may help others.
Be aware, that wire should only be used as a signal to a relay (or relay command or controlling switch or anything you may call it). Do not attempt to use it to power any other equipment directly, because it won't handle heavy load.
08-08-2016, 03:18 PM
#15
AudiWorld Super User
You might explain your geography more and relevant vehicle equipment laws. Anywhere in the U.S. for example it is flat out illegal to operate any moving screen (like TV) not just for watching by driver, but anywhere a driver can even see it. That means basically front passenger seat too, and cops will sometimes pull people over for this if it is blatant--more easily seen at night. Thus to me system set up is actually pretty logical. But it is frankly laughably obsolete so its more an academic debate. But again, much more so in U.S. where factory set up or consumer (non techno) installs never included things like TV tuners. It never got beyond non-BluRay basic DVD's on a low res screen, and at most RCA aux jacks I don't recall anyone even plugging anything into. iPads even smartphones and especially streaming or podcasts or VOD and such really blew it out of water. For audio only, you can get to those even on regular D3 if you can bluetooth in and can set up an A2DP connection.
Basic rule in USA is, no screens w/ video in front, except those that only can play when car is stopped. Some factory set ups like in our old Toyota minivan did allow front screen to play the video but only once stopped; I think newer Audis like my S8 or Q5 may allow without further modding when stopped, but no personal interest anyway. I don't think that is uncommon in world generally to ban video while moving in front, but maybe I'm mistaken. Some companies were also working on specialized diffraction techniques so only front passenger could see video and not driver; don't know what ever happened to that. The latest reply seems to suggest the screen would be playing after the final stop but you still want it powered on for for the tail end of a news program. That implies it was running while driving. Audio legal, yes, video while driving anywhere in front, no. Sound from video while driving but no picture, legal. The decapitated Tesla owner (apparently using some portable DVD player) is the extreme gruesome example of this gone way over the top and has focused a lot of attention on both autonomous and maybe ultimately on a likely Tesla or other argument about distracted driving. That extreme case aside, the apparent implementation and related local environment it is used in don't really fit USA type set ups and related restrictions on front video. In turn perhaps why folks see this kind of orthogonally/don't quite get it since the most posters are US or Canada, and most of rest are western Europe and an occasional Aussie or Mideast somewhere.
Basic rule in USA is, no screens w/ video in front, except those that only can play when car is stopped. Some factory set ups like in our old Toyota minivan did allow front screen to play the video but only once stopped; I think newer Audis like my S8 or Q5 may allow without further modding when stopped, but no personal interest anyway. I don't think that is uncommon in world generally to ban video while moving in front, but maybe I'm mistaken. Some companies were also working on specialized diffraction techniques so only front passenger could see video and not driver; don't know what ever happened to that. The latest reply seems to suggest the screen would be playing after the final stop but you still want it powered on for for the tail end of a news program. That implies it was running while driving. Audio legal, yes, video while driving anywhere in front, no. Sound from video while driving but no picture, legal. The decapitated Tesla owner (apparently using some portable DVD player) is the extreme gruesome example of this gone way over the top and has focused a lot of attention on both autonomous and maybe ultimately on a likely Tesla or other argument about distracted driving. That extreme case aside, the apparent implementation and related local environment it is used in don't really fit USA type set ups and related restrictions on front video. In turn perhaps why folks see this kind of orthogonally/don't quite get it since the most posters are US or Canada, and most of rest are western Europe and an occasional Aussie or Mideast somewhere.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 08-08-2016 at 03:37 PM.
08-08-2016, 03:45 PM
#16
Well, my approach was related more to the proper way of installation rather than to the purpose of it so yes, this may be more of an academic debate.
Although I like hearing/watching TV news more than radio news, that was only an example.
MMI controller won't allow video in motion anyway (it cuts off video at anything above 3-5 mph, but it doesn't cut sound), so actually the DVD changer would be powered on by terminal 15 exactly when you don't need it: when in motion (except for the passengers in the back).
Video comes back while/after parking, but as I said, RSE systems acts as a pass-through device and it cuts video if the key is turned counterclockwise (shut off the engine/turn off terminal 15).
So, the difference is:
1.WITHOUT RSE, you would have video (from TV tuner) after you shut off the engine but before you remove the key, or when you press the volume button on the MMI console even without any key in the ignition.
2. WITH RSE (the way factory implemented it), you will have NO VIDEO, neither from DVD changer nor from TV tuner (because RSE is a pass-through device for video signal), until you turn on the ignition. That is the problem: video cut off for an OEM device that would be otherwise controllable from MMI console.
And that's why I think that proper setup is with the RSE powered on as long as MOST ring devices (or at least TV tuner) are/is powered on, and not by terminal 15.
Although I like hearing/watching TV news more than radio news, that was only an example.
MMI controller won't allow video in motion anyway (it cuts off video at anything above 3-5 mph, but it doesn't cut sound), so actually the DVD changer would be powered on by terminal 15 exactly when you don't need it: when in motion (except for the passengers in the back).
Video comes back while/after parking, but as I said, RSE systems acts as a pass-through device and it cuts video if the key is turned counterclockwise (shut off the engine/turn off terminal 15).
So, the difference is:
1.WITHOUT RSE, you would have video (from TV tuner) after you shut off the engine but before you remove the key, or when you press the volume button on the MMI console even without any key in the ignition.
2. WITH RSE (the way factory implemented it), you will have NO VIDEO, neither from DVD changer nor from TV tuner (because RSE is a pass-through device for video signal), until you turn on the ignition. That is the problem: video cut off for an OEM device that would be otherwise controllable from MMI console.
And that's why I think that proper setup is with the RSE powered on as long as MOST ring devices (or at least TV tuner) are/is powered on, and not by terminal 15.
08-13-2016, 05:10 AM
#18
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Good thing you found it. I just ran a jump wire from the left fuse panel coming off the windshield wipers. Tucked it under the carpet and into the trunk where I had a relay drawing power off that fuse panel. Used it to power the HDMI converter box etc., for signal from phone to TV tuner.
Last edited by 1Wasserwerks; 08-13-2016 at 05:16 AM.
08-16-2016, 02:04 AM
#19
Good thing you found it. I just ran a jump wire from the left fuse panel coming off the windshield wipers. Tucked it under the carpet and into the trunk where I had a relay drawing power off that fuse panel. Used it to power the HDMI converter box etc., for signal from phone to TV tuner.
Thank you. Now I want to go to the next level: I want to intercept the MMI console keys, so when the rotary button or the 'back' / 'forward' buttons are used, they will 'press' the corresponding button on the IR remote control, so the driver can have a basic control over the DVD Changer.
That should be pretty easy to do, either with a programmable IR transmitter, or with a spare(disassembled) remote control, and the circuit board should be properly designed so the current from the remote control won't interfere with the current from the MMI console.
The hardest part is to determine when the DVD changer is the active source on the MMI screen (so the DVD changer will be controlled only then, because I don't want the changer to receive random commands when the driver actually controls something else from the MMI Console).
So I can design the whole thing when I will manage to find a way for the device to figure out when the driver selected External AV1 or AV2 as an active source, and I really don't know how to accomplish this right now.
Yes, I know there are aftermarket interfaces that can control several aftermarket devices with OEM buttons (including the ones from MFSW), but the number of controllable devices is small, and the device I want to build can control almost any device that is controllable by an IR remote.
-------
That being said, I want to underline that the whole idea of this thread was about the proper way to implement a project. As I feel that some readers might have misunderstood what I wanted, I would like to assure all of you that I don't encourage watching videos while driving, which, along with texting and chasing pokemons
, are very bad habits.
08-16-2016, 03:29 AM
#20
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thank you. Now I want to go to the next level: I want to intercept the MMI console keys, so when the rotary button or the 'back' / 'forward' buttons are used, they will 'press' the corresponding button on the IR remote control, so the driver can have a basic control over the DVD Changer.
That should be pretty easy to do, either with a programmable IR transmitter, or with a spare(disassembled) remote control, and the circuit board should be properly designed so the current from the remote control won't interfere with the current from the MMI console.
That should be pretty easy to do, either with a programmable IR transmitter, or with a spare(disassembled) remote control, and the circuit board should be properly designed so the current from the remote control won't interfere with the current from the MMI console.
I think what you really want is the universal transcendental interface or UTI. The UTI is a device that knows your intent with a simple touch and acts accordingly. It can control DVD changers, home computers, home appliances and more.
Last edited by richard-tx; 08-16-2016 at 03:35 AM.