shortyq

Toxcheap:
I'm not taking a damn thing away from a guy whacking 13sec quarter miles. You shouldn't take anything away from those of us that tweek 5ktq's and other audis for a LIVING either. Many of us are intimately familiar with how CIS works, have dedicated thousands of hours to it to keep some of the older cars running in a world of EFI. You aren't "thinking outside the box" at all, IMO, you just have a different level of risk management than some of us with a lot more experience with it.

IME with CIS in the stock trim, it can yeild ~300hp as a maximum. If you have "test" equipment, you can test my claims pretty easily. OR if you want more, you can calculate the physics of airflow/fuelflow thru a specific bore.

Any of the formulas I've put up to date aren't something I invented. In fact, both R&T and C&D whom you quote, use the exact same quarter calculation I do to get an idea if a manufacturer is being honest about HP claims. For an example of this, ck out the C&D issue on the "240hp 1995 M3". C&D makes comments about it, because the quarter mile times say BMW is about 40hp shy of the hp claim.

CIS can put power into a I5, and in the case of the I5 turbo, almost twice the factory output. That says alot about the "potential" of CIS. But eventually the physics of flow and the draw/simplicity of lambda generated EFI becomes much more desireable.

For a shop owner like me, I'm pretty confident I understand the HOW of what you did, I'm not at all convinced that selling the concept is something I'd like to take on. When motors blow, turbos schrapnel and head gaskets pop, I don't want my name anywhere associated (for more on this, ck out the audifans archives on Tap chips blowing up motors). To date, I've been pretty consistent myself in building some pretty cool quattros (including CIS), and can reference audisport documentation, SAE papers, and just plain physics to support my experiences and opinions of them in targetting tweeks in ANY quattro performance venue.

You yourself are claiming that "cheap" is your goal. In 25 years of motorsports, I understand "budgets", but cheap usually becomes a self evident oxymoron. Without sharing a firm grasp of understanding any theory or documentation wrt what you are doing, you come out of the box on fire already.

I've never said you didn't whack a 13 second quarter mile. Not sure what else you are trying to prove to ME. That everyone should do it? I'm not gonna go there with you. Risk management.

Don't prove anything to me, I'm no guru. I can read every one of your posts and know that you could get where you want to go quicker if you shared and took input instead of punted. I know this, cuz in the btdt department, there are several people way ahead of you on CIStq's without whacking a single quarter mile time.

Share what you are doing, don't make some of us your targetted carnage. Thanks for your consideration.

Scott Justusson

v8phil

Good stuff, thanks guys.

Toxcheap

We were ripping the teeth off the front ring with 250hp doing 4 wheel donuts on dry payment.
Thanx but we've BTDT. You never did answer the question, how does the wagon go faster than the 80tq, when it's 600lbs heavier and according to you has the same horsepower? (300=320 on a good day)
BTW we can get over 300 without changing the fuel system pressures.
Dude your still thinking inside the bun.

Good Luck
MYKNFX

Toxcheap

You brought it upon yourself when you left the 5000 forum went over to the UrQ forum and wrote "The 375 hp claim is more like 320".
Even in this post you're trying to add in things I didn't say "cheap" I said low budget, oh and your not a guru now? Okay i'm sure you feel that way that's why you end every sentence with "BTDT". Scott what about your equation that put an expected RWHP at 170.48 in a stock 5ktq, then you even wrote "Sounds about right to me."
But you never wrote back to TM or I when I posted the Audi AG dyno chart.
Don't get me wrong I'm very impressed with a LT1 5K and the 80tq but both have a ton of custom work and they both sounded pretty expensive.
Look at how factory are cars are still. I just don't think about replacing/fabricating until I'm at a wall.
You guys gave up to easy, maybe you heard of these limitation and just tried to avoid them, because you didn't test anything that I'm sure because I've "BTDT"

PS:Love that at the bottom "share what you are doing,"

Good Luck cuz it's on now!
MYKNFX

shortyq

Toxcheap:
Take a gander at R&T and C&D quarter mile times vs the formula I presented or you can find at many websites in plug and play form. It's pretty clear to me that the how of extrapolating horsepower is pretty clear. Audi publishes the 13.2 quarter mile time on the RS2 car. Audi publishes 315HP for that claim at 3600lbs. Think INSIDE the box about what that means.

WRT the rest of it, it's risk management. You have taken the risk, and blown motors (you didn't drive home last year). I'm thinking with some better targets, research, goals and understanding of what you are doing, the practical application of "cheap" can be low budget hi horsepower fun.

I thoroughly enjoy your claims. I'm quite comfortable what they are in reality, and what the risk are in reality. You aren't reinventing the wheel Toxcheap, CIS has been around a long time.

Thanks for the smiles. I assure you, your brother whacking a 13 second quarter mile in a station wagon needs no excuses. Be content with that, the rest of the claims and methodology is where we disagree. I'm quite content with that. I'm also quite content that you don't need to share a darn thing with me, there is nothing "magical" about CIS, it's a simplified carburator. That said I'm also quite content sharing the risk of cheap tweeks to it.

Budget money for improvements. Cheap has a way of finding physics equations quickly. Where we do agree? Both of us are glad you "aren't in the business".


Thanks

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ Performance Tuning

Toxcheap

with blowing motor's???????
Yeah Scott again your info is WRONG!
Dude you crack me up, and your retort
using published RS2 spec what was that MPH, oh I see were faster again with less horsepower.
I to am confident in saying at waterfest 2003 we were pushing 345@22.7psi, now pushing 375@26.7psi and you still know jack about CIS fuel distributer flow rates.

Thanks for the laugh
MYKNFX

Toxcheap

Well what did it run????

shortyq

Toxcheap:
IME 1/4 mile times and ET only make sense when they jive with the formula. I can't comment on how you or anyone else "got" this time or that, or even how a dyno run got this hp or that. In a turbo car, a LOT of factors affect 1/4 mile times. In a quattro turbo launches are huge, so are shifts within the torque curve. Dyno's either confirm or question a given ET/MPH. Get both really close, they self validate. In the case of Javad having both, the formula looks pretty good. You have only one, I certainly can predict the other one using Javad's validation.

I go to the quarter mile track several times a year (and have been going for close to 30years), and can make many observations watching the action. A picture of the board is enough for me to say, yup, you got this. I put it in the formula that's been around for a gazillion cars prior to yours, and come up with a claimed RWHP figgr to whack a given ET/MPH. When I hear guys claiming more from them, or saying the formula is bunk, I think it's tough to beat both the laws of physics and a huge "n" applied to them.

I make no excuses for what comes out of a quarter mile or a dyno. When both jive (as Javad's appears to) I think the formula is self validating. When they don't jive, or only one exists, it's the best ya got. I can predict with a very high confidence level that if you whacked a 13.1 at 104 at 3600lbs as your "best" apparent time, then drove onto a 4wheel dyno, you'd get ~316hp.

What else is there? Am I missing something basic? I don't think so. I suppose we could get quarter mile jr, and run everything thru to get exactly what's happening, and what's not, and what needs changing. But why? Given pretty consistent VE of a motor, and consistent gearboxes (changing either is expensive - I'd go efi first), the general formulas appear good enough.

Sorry, no quarter mile times off the LT1Q, tho we might get them from the new owner. Bob and I make no "claims" from it Toxcheap, other than we DID it. For some of us, some times that's enough.

Scott Justusson

Toxcheap

Seems your still avoiding the question.
And I find It hard to believe with all your racing, you never brought the LT1 to the track.
Come on, please

Myke

shortyq

15.2 @ 84 mph before the LT1 conversion. Same as my wagon.



SJ