timing belt questions for V8 quatrro 3,6
11-04-2011, 04:10 PM
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timing belt questions for V8 quatrro 3,6
I have recently acquired for next to nothing, a 1990 V8 quttro (AT) with a couple things to fix... i have removed the front bumper and rad to get at the front of the engine because there was a water leak at the front of the engine, i beleive it is the water pump because there is water leaking around it and at the bottom of the front cover.. however i would like to be sure that it is NOT normal that i can turn by hand quite easily the water pump pulley?? the belt looks fine and was apparently changed 20,000kms ago, can the tensioners be tired?? thanks alot for the help!!
11-04-2011, 07:02 PM
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Is it the water pump pulley you are turning or just the fan? You have to have the timing belt covers off to access the water pump. Take a look at the pictures in this thread:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2202497
If you need to do a timing belt you'll need to rent some special tools.
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2202497
If you need to do a timing belt you'll need to rent some special tools.
11-04-2011, 08:16 PM
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this is where it is turning from...
which special tools will i need?? and where are the water temp sensors? i want to test them because the auto-check light for water temp lights up on start up... fluid is full, so im guessing it could be a sensor... thanks for the help!
which special tools will i need?? and where are the water temp sensors? i want to test them because the auto-check light for water temp lights up on start up... fluid is full, so im guessing it could be a sensor... thanks for the help!
11-05-2011, 07:53 AM
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The special tools you need are a couple of plates that bolt onto the rear of the cams to hold them in position when installing the belt. Some people say they have managed without them, but I don't think I could have. I can't remember if you need something to keep the crank pulley from turning when you remove the bolt. Here's a picture of the toolkit:
http://www.blauparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=N1A1006
The belt must be pretty loose to allow you to turn the pulley by hand. You're lucky the timing hasn't slipped. Maybe the water pump or tensioner weren't replaced when the timing belt was done. Does the water pump pulley have play in it? If you're at the point where you can access the water pump you've already got a lot of the work done.
http://www.blauparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=N1A1006
The belt must be pretty loose to allow you to turn the pulley by hand. You're lucky the timing hasn't slipped. Maybe the water pump or tensioner weren't replaced when the timing belt was done. Does the water pump pulley have play in it? If you're at the point where you can access the water pump you've already got a lot of the work done.
11-05-2011, 08:15 AM
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There's a temperature sensor in the radiator and one near the front of the driver side head. There's also one in the reservoir, but that's for coolant level. There's some threads on here on testing the sensors you could search for.
11-09-2011, 07:17 PM
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I just put a timing belt on my 91 V8 5 speed last weekend. Bought my tools from Baum tools. I got: 3199 cam locks $126.98, 2079 crank pulley bolt wrench $126.98 (2079 not needed if you remove the front of car), 3197 crank pulley holder $123.00, AS4394 Cam sprocket holding tool $49.92, V159 eccentric pulley pin wrench $38.40. total $528.25 OR $401.27 if you don't buy #2079.
Cam locks 3199:
Crank Pulley holder tool 3197:
Cam Sprocket holding tool AS4294:
Eccentric pulley pin wrench V159:
allen wrenches to pin back the belt tensioner and the damper stop plate:
Slide Hammer to lightly knock Cam Sprockets loose:
Nylon ties and a vise to hold damper closed for install:
The shop manual assumes you will leave the front end on the car:
If you take it off some short cuts are possible; the fan doesn't have to be taken off because it will come out with the t-belt cover:
Their is a hidden bolt behind the accesory drive belt tensioner, I used an allen wrench to pin the tensioner bracket out of the way:
I took off plug wires from distributor cap, but marked them with a sharpy marker 1-8 first using this firing order pic in the manaul:
Shop manual says: take off timing belt, then put on cam locks. I did this and my cam sprocket intsantly jumped an inch when the t-belt came off. I had it on cylinder #1 and now it was off. Luckily the Cam Sprocket tool made it easy to pull the cam back in line with the mark to wiggle the cam lock into place. The cam lock has a slot on the edge that fits over a pin. You can't see what your doing but you can feel it and it wasn't too hard, just awkward. In this pic you can see the cam lock sits flush against the head. It didn't at first, but I wiggled the cam sprocket and it snapped in:
I took off my crank bolt and wiggled my damper off with the t-belt sprocket still attached. When I put on the new t-belt it was a little tricky to get it in all the teeth while puting the crank pulley/sprocket back on, took a couple attempts to get the belt to seat in all the teeth.
I tightened the crank bolt by reinstalling the passenger side t-belt cover with just 3 bolts hand tight, then put crank holder tool 3197 on and tightened it down, then took t-belt cover back off to adjust my belt tension:
Adjusting eccentric pulley to get damper length to 130-133 mm:
Measuring with dial guage caliper 130mm damper length after rotating engine by hand clockwise 2 full rotations:
I set my damper length at 132 mm but after two full rotations it settled in at 130 mm the min allowed. I figure the belt will stretch over time and will still be in spec.
I bought a Goodyear t-belt off rockauto.com seemed a quality belt.
Cam locks 3199:
Crank Pulley holder tool 3197:
Cam Sprocket holding tool AS4294:
Eccentric pulley pin wrench V159:
allen wrenches to pin back the belt tensioner and the damper stop plate:
Slide Hammer to lightly knock Cam Sprockets loose:
Nylon ties and a vise to hold damper closed for install:
The shop manual assumes you will leave the front end on the car:
If you take it off some short cuts are possible; the fan doesn't have to be taken off because it will come out with the t-belt cover:
Their is a hidden bolt behind the accesory drive belt tensioner, I used an allen wrench to pin the tensioner bracket out of the way:
I took off plug wires from distributor cap, but marked them with a sharpy marker 1-8 first using this firing order pic in the manaul:
Shop manual says: take off timing belt, then put on cam locks. I did this and my cam sprocket intsantly jumped an inch when the t-belt came off. I had it on cylinder #1 and now it was off. Luckily the Cam Sprocket tool made it easy to pull the cam back in line with the mark to wiggle the cam lock into place. The cam lock has a slot on the edge that fits over a pin. You can't see what your doing but you can feel it and it wasn't too hard, just awkward. In this pic you can see the cam lock sits flush against the head. It didn't at first, but I wiggled the cam sprocket and it snapped in:
I took off my crank bolt and wiggled my damper off with the t-belt sprocket still attached. When I put on the new t-belt it was a little tricky to get it in all the teeth while puting the crank pulley/sprocket back on, took a couple attempts to get the belt to seat in all the teeth.
I tightened the crank bolt by reinstalling the passenger side t-belt cover with just 3 bolts hand tight, then put crank holder tool 3197 on and tightened it down, then took t-belt cover back off to adjust my belt tension:
Adjusting eccentric pulley to get damper length to 130-133 mm:
Measuring with dial guage caliper 130mm damper length after rotating engine by hand clockwise 2 full rotations:
I set my damper length at 132 mm but after two full rotations it settled in at 130 mm the min allowed. I figure the belt will stretch over time and will still be in spec.
I bought a Goodyear t-belt off rockauto.com seemed a quality belt.
11-09-2011, 08:54 PM
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I too noticed my water pump could be turned by hand with the old t-belt on. I turned the crank by hand one full rotation and the belt was now tighter, but still loose on the water pump. It was most loose at TDC.
Look at my damper shock length before changing t-belt in this pic:
And see how much more short it is after put into spec in this pic:
And look at this damper shock length done by GermanAutoConnection:
Whoever put in your t-belt might not have adjusted the Eccentric pulley to get the damper shock to 130-133mm. Or your belt wore out prematurely.
After changing to the new belt and adjusting the damper to 130 mm the belt was good and tight on the water pump pulley. So you may just need to turn the Eccentric pully with the pin wrench untill you measure 130-133 mm on the damper shock.
1990-1993 Audi V8 quattro auto and 5 speed Repair Manual:
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37944
Look at my damper shock length before changing t-belt in this pic:
And see how much more short it is after put into spec in this pic:
And look at this damper shock length done by GermanAutoConnection:
Whoever put in your t-belt might not have adjusted the Eccentric pulley to get the damper shock to 130-133mm. Or your belt wore out prematurely.
After changing to the new belt and adjusting the damper to 130 mm the belt was good and tight on the water pump pulley. So you may just need to turn the Eccentric pully with the pin wrench untill you measure 130-133 mm on the damper shock.
1990-1993 Audi V8 quattro auto and 5 speed Repair Manual:
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37944
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11-10-2011, 04:14 AM
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Light bulb went off in my head! T-belt was loose at the water pump because, the Cam Sprockets weren't loosended and popped free to spin in the last t-belt change. I suspect a shortcut was taken. If you don't loosen the cam sprockets, then turning the Eccentric Pulley wont eat up the slack on the belt between the Cam Sprockets, resulting in a loose belt at the waterpump pulley.
This shortcut results in an obvious Eccentric Pulley clue. Take a look at my Eccentric pulleys direction right after removing the t-belt covers, it's pointing down!
The bolt was tight, so it must have been set that way in the previous T-belt service. We both must have had the same service tech!
To fix this:
-put the cam locks on,
-put the Cam sprocket holder on the sprocket,
-loosen the center cam sprocket bolts,
-gently tap the sprockets off thier tappered shaft with a small slidehammer,
-turn the eccentric untill the slack in the T-belt is eaten up and the damper shock measures 130-133mm.
That should tighten up the belt on the waterpump.
This shortcut results in an obvious Eccentric Pulley clue. Take a look at my Eccentric pulleys direction right after removing the t-belt covers, it's pointing down!
The bolt was tight, so it must have been set that way in the previous T-belt service. We both must have had the same service tech!
To fix this:
-put the cam locks on,
-put the Cam sprocket holder on the sprocket,
-loosen the center cam sprocket bolts,
-gently tap the sprockets off thier tappered shaft with a small slidehammer,
-turn the eccentric untill the slack in the T-belt is eaten up and the damper shock measures 130-133mm.
That should tighten up the belt on the waterpump.
11-10-2011, 03:40 PM
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Great info thanks! I suspect my problem is the same, timing belt was changed without loosening sprokets... however my eccentric is at the 4 o'clock position, where i see yours (1972bc) was at about 7 o'clock position.. my damper doesnt look like yours did either, it looks like the german auto pic.. anyways, im a little shocked that i need minimum 400$ of tools to change a 50$ belt, that i only need to take off to change the waterpump gasket ( belt and pump are only 20,000 kms old..) so this is a setback as the car was just to get me through the winter...!!! oh well, i knew it was a gamble... its really the cam locks i need most, i can do without the rest... is it possible to slot the waterpump mounting holes to increase the tension on the pulley?? i thought this could be a solution, i would just need to mark properly and could avoid removing the damper which if you saw the condition of the four allen bolts, is definately not going to be easy... has anyone ever done this?? thanks again to all!!
11-10-2011, 05:16 PM
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Cam locks are all you need. (and a slide hammer to knock cam sprockets loose) Change your water pump gasket, and adjust timing belt tension and done. Ask the local Audi garage if you can borrow thier 3199's.
Or you can rent t-belt tools here: http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articl...oolrental.html
No need to remove your crank damper if the belt is new. Anyways you say your 4 allen screws are rusty, I never touched the allens, I took out the center crank bolt and the crank damper came off with the toothed crank sprocket. Crankshaft is keyed so even if you do take crank damper off for some reason, you can't mess it up it only goes on one way. Just make sure crank damper is at TDC mark when setting your t-belt tension.
You say your shock damper is like GermanAutoConnections not like mine? If you're worried about the different spring length don't be; you measure the body length to check tension like this:
I think that getting the cam sprockets loose is difficult so people skip it. I just tapped them lightly using this slide hammer and they popped of their tappered shafts:
Or you can rent t-belt tools here: http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articl...oolrental.html
No need to remove your crank damper if the belt is new. Anyways you say your 4 allen screws are rusty, I never touched the allens, I took out the center crank bolt and the crank damper came off with the toothed crank sprocket. Crankshaft is keyed so even if you do take crank damper off for some reason, you can't mess it up it only goes on one way. Just make sure crank damper is at TDC mark when setting your t-belt tension.
You say your shock damper is like GermanAutoConnections not like mine? If you're worried about the different spring length don't be; you measure the body length to check tension like this:
I think that getting the cam sprockets loose is difficult so people skip it. I just tapped them lightly using this slide hammer and they popped of their tappered shafts: