measurement/clearance and strut travel issues you can expect with alloy washers...
10-01-2006, 06:46 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
measurement/clearance and strut travel issues you can expect with alloy washers...
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/711/alloycupwshr10.jpg"></center><p>
If there's anything I've seen lately that indicates just how lax, complacent or outright oblivious people are about strut mounts yesterday was certainly all I needed to see. I had 8 cars to choose from at Champagne to take these measurements and pics and there's not a car among them that couldnt benefit from new strut mounts. Four of those cars are "sale units" and the remaining 4 are in for service (but strut mounts is not listed for replacement on even one of them!).
Given the above situation I limited picture taking to only 2 cars but I did measure clearances, compressive mount travel as well as rebound mount travel on all. In retrospect I could've limited pics and measurements to only one car as any differences are negligible between all cars. It can be said all pre-'93 B4 chassis Audis have "exactly" the same strut tower top size, thickness and/or any other dimensions across-the-board as it relates to strut mount seats and/or the strut tower tops above them. Doesnt matter if its 4kQ, CQ, UrQ etc etc. Doesnt matter what engine it has or what suspension it came with. No differences whatsoever, PERIOD!! NONE, NADA, ZERO, ZILCH, BUPKUS!! And '93-'95 B4's are just as identical for all years. And "only" thing that sets the B4 apart from "all" earlier Audi is the addition of the 2.5mm thick strut tower plates for mounting the strut bars. Below that plate they are identical to all previous year Audis.
Bottom line is all pre-'96 small-bodied Audis will have interference issues with alloy washers using OEM strut mounts regardless of manufacturer. Even the Boge mounts I use and recommend for my stuff will crash the alloy mount into the hood on compression and/or allow the mount to fall out of its seat in the strut towers on rebound (except B4 due to strut plate thickness). Maybe not when new as it relates to "compression" but at some point down the road as the mount starts to fatigue, fail and/or collapse. Same can be said for rebound, ie; these will allow rebound to drop the mount out of its strut tower seat as the tires/wheels drop away from the car with nothing to limit that travel. Tho the B4 has an edge over all other cars in this respect due to a 2.5mm thick strut tower plate thats absent on previous cars and that makes all the difference in the world on rebound with regard to retaining the mount in its seat.
With Pro-Mounts and Mount-Savers none of these issues are present. Because compressive travel is dampened/limited in both the alloy washer cannot contact the hood underside. With the strut tower bezels they cannot fall far enough to allow the mount to fall out of its housing on extreme suspension rebound. Tho with Mount-Savers alone there is the issue of the alloy washers being gauled deeply by the slotted nut. I can solve that by including a hardened washer between those two parts. And using the alloy washer with OEM mounts/slotted nuts has the same problem and adding the washer then makes those sit even higher.
If these were allowed to contact the hood under-side I dont know which would win that war. I dont know if the alloy washer would bend/deflect or if it would bend, dent or kink the hood at the contact point. And I wont be the tester that finds out! Nor will I be the one testing what happens when/if the strut mount falls out of its seat. But I can imagine it would not be good, fun or cheap to correct any result of that event.
Everyone has the part number and knows where to get them. You're now fully informed and free to make your decisions. With Pro-Mounts/Mount-Savers they're PERFECT! With OEM or "any" other unmodified/aftermarket rubber strut mounts there's the potential for disaster looming large at the very next bump or pothole... or the next one after that or the next one after that... its not a matter of "if" its simply a matter of "when."
Pic is of UrQ w/stock washer
Dont think that because these mounts are 75%collapsed you will avoid this by prompt periodic strut mount replacements. Think of the height shown in this picture instead as a "freeze-frame" pic of your brand new strut mounts at at about 75% of their compressive travel range after hitting their first good bump as this is where even new mounts top out over a good bump. The next bump, depending on severity could push them up less or dramatically more.
If there's anything I've seen lately that indicates just how lax, complacent or outright oblivious people are about strut mounts yesterday was certainly all I needed to see. I had 8 cars to choose from at Champagne to take these measurements and pics and there's not a car among them that couldnt benefit from new strut mounts. Four of those cars are "sale units" and the remaining 4 are in for service (but strut mounts is not listed for replacement on even one of them!).
Given the above situation I limited picture taking to only 2 cars but I did measure clearances, compressive mount travel as well as rebound mount travel on all. In retrospect I could've limited pics and measurements to only one car as any differences are negligible between all cars. It can be said all pre-'93 B4 chassis Audis have "exactly" the same strut tower top size, thickness and/or any other dimensions across-the-board as it relates to strut mount seats and/or the strut tower tops above them. Doesnt matter if its 4kQ, CQ, UrQ etc etc. Doesnt matter what engine it has or what suspension it came with. No differences whatsoever, PERIOD!! NONE, NADA, ZERO, ZILCH, BUPKUS!! And '93-'95 B4's are just as identical for all years. And "only" thing that sets the B4 apart from "all" earlier Audi is the addition of the 2.5mm thick strut tower plates for mounting the strut bars. Below that plate they are identical to all previous year Audis.
Bottom line is all pre-'96 small-bodied Audis will have interference issues with alloy washers using OEM strut mounts regardless of manufacturer. Even the Boge mounts I use and recommend for my stuff will crash the alloy mount into the hood on compression and/or allow the mount to fall out of its seat in the strut towers on rebound (except B4 due to strut plate thickness). Maybe not when new as it relates to "compression" but at some point down the road as the mount starts to fatigue, fail and/or collapse. Same can be said for rebound, ie; these will allow rebound to drop the mount out of its strut tower seat as the tires/wheels drop away from the car with nothing to limit that travel. Tho the B4 has an edge over all other cars in this respect due to a 2.5mm thick strut tower plate thats absent on previous cars and that makes all the difference in the world on rebound with regard to retaining the mount in its seat.
With Pro-Mounts and Mount-Savers none of these issues are present. Because compressive travel is dampened/limited in both the alloy washer cannot contact the hood underside. With the strut tower bezels they cannot fall far enough to allow the mount to fall out of its housing on extreme suspension rebound. Tho with Mount-Savers alone there is the issue of the alloy washers being gauled deeply by the slotted nut. I can solve that by including a hardened washer between those two parts. And using the alloy washer with OEM mounts/slotted nuts has the same problem and adding the washer then makes those sit even higher.
If these were allowed to contact the hood under-side I dont know which would win that war. I dont know if the alloy washer would bend/deflect or if it would bend, dent or kink the hood at the contact point. And I wont be the tester that finds out! Nor will I be the one testing what happens when/if the strut mount falls out of its seat. But I can imagine it would not be good, fun or cheap to correct any result of that event.
Everyone has the part number and knows where to get them. You're now fully informed and free to make your decisions. With Pro-Mounts/Mount-Savers they're PERFECT! With OEM or "any" other unmodified/aftermarket rubber strut mounts there's the potential for disaster looming large at the very next bump or pothole... or the next one after that or the next one after that... its not a matter of "if" its simply a matter of "when."
Pic is of UrQ w/stock washer
Dont think that because these mounts are 75%collapsed you will avoid this by prompt periodic strut mount replacements. Think of the height shown in this picture instead as a "freeze-frame" pic of your brand new strut mounts at at about 75% of their compressive travel range after hitting their first good bump as this is where even new mounts top out over a good bump. The next bump, depending on severity could push them up less or dramatically more.
10-01-2006, 06:56 AM
#3
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Pic 3/stock washer in '91 20V sedan with no engine (being prepped for 1.8T transplant)
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/711/alloycupwshr13.jpg"></center><p>
No engine weight on front of car. Transmission installed.
Strut mounts are in relaxed/no-load position.
No engine weight on front of car. Transmission installed.
Strut mounts are in relaxed/no-load position.
10-01-2006, 04:46 PM
#5
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hey mance, ever see the rear washers from a coupe...not sure if they're the same as the rest of....
the b3q's but in the coupe they have that big rubber ring, at least in mine. i guess they could have been swapped out in the past by a previous owner...(the car does have koni's with vortrag coilovers) so it is possible. but the fronts have the split plastic washers.
anyways, they're not alloy, but they do have that thick rubber ring, not sure if they'd be anything you were looking for or have already seen, since you were looking for fronts only, but i think they were about the same hight....
anyways, they're not alloy, but they do have that thick rubber ring, not sure if they'd be anything you were looking for or have already seen, since you were looking for fronts only, but i think they were about the same hight....
10-01-2006, 05:43 PM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
"all" pre-B4 small-bodied quattro Audis have those. There was a post on Thursday/Friday
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/711/alloycupwshr7.jpg"></center><p>
and lengthy discussion regarding use of them. Steel cupped washers are exact same height front/rear on all these cars with only difference being damping rings. But because the stock washers dont have sufficient height that rubber ring will be short-lived when used on the front wheels that turn due to friction/rubbing when turning.
The alloy washer is great for my needs with Mount-Savers or Pro-Mounts with alloy travel-limiting tower bezels but no help at all to stock OEM or generic strut mount users. Perfect clearance for long life and and no rub/friction as well as better noise damping.
and lengthy discussion regarding use of them. Steel cupped washers are exact same height front/rear on all these cars with only difference being damping rings. But because the stock washers dont have sufficient height that rubber ring will be short-lived when used on the front wheels that turn due to friction/rubbing when turning.
The alloy washer is great for my needs with Mount-Savers or Pro-Mounts with alloy travel-limiting tower bezels but no help at all to stock OEM or generic strut mount users. Perfect clearance for long life and and no rub/friction as well as better noise damping.
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