Lago Blue

While I'm sure these have their purpose, everyday use is probably not one of them. I can't imagine that these would either be silent, nor last but for a very short while on the street. Yes pretty much solid, no compliance. VAP offered ones similar (non-adjustable; and no separate needle thrust-bearing) to these before he came out with the Pro-Mounts.

Lago Blue

Did your (jacked-side) door open and close any differently, than when the car was sitting with all four wheels on a flat surface?

Having watched the suspension whilst raising and lowering the car, you can appreciate the angular change that the Macpherson strut itself must go through to accommodate the A-arm's arc of travel. How could the needle bearing of the OEM strut-mount allow that strut's long axis to tilt? Not without excessive clearance, and by bending the bottom metal ring of the mount, away from its' "at rest" position; it can't.

Not exactly sure what you meant by "twice the car's weight". Also where you there referring to space/gap under the cupped-washer and the top of the fender tower?

Here is the article wherein (start at the second paragraph) the definitive method on how to correctly determine your strut-mount's life already consumed (as you may have by now surmised, it's life remaining; is neither long, nor predictable!):

<ul><li><a href="https://www.audiworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18542199
">Mind the gap...</a></li></ul>

yetiking303

i jacked up the passenger side front. and surprisingly there was very little change when i opened and closed the door.

when i said it moved 1/2" from no weight to twice weight all i meant is that the side in the air was 1/2" different from the side on the ground, no really accurate measurements but it did outline my starting point for improvement.

i've looked though the stuff from 2bennett, and man do they have some expensive stuff. very cool stuff, but man is it pricey.

i believe i read the pro mounts with mount savers are together somewhere around 100 a pair, just wanted to check that I'm not mistaken- would hate to write up vap asking for a set just to find out there its going to take me 2 months to work up the dough.

on the 2 versions of the mounts:
i assume the second model is more durable, and stiff, where as the first version is more forgiving. any really suggestions?

does vap make the other bushings for these cars too? i haven't read anything so i would assume not. what would you recomend for engine mounts and sub frame mounts, i just looked under today and there pritty old and crusty.

on a side note- what is the general ground clearance for a rally car/rally cross car, just figured i would ask since you mentioned it.

thanks for the advice, depending on cost i'll be ordering a set within a month.

thanks a ton- if not for your help i would still be hopelessly trying to stiffen up the suspension with useless bushings.

Lago Blue

of the cupped washers in the strut-mounts.

A strut-tower brace (your original question) will work on those "little" changes, whereas the Mount-Savers and Pro-Mounts will work on the larger changes similar in scope to what you saw when raising and lowering the car; except that strut-mount damage is mostly hidden in it's interior, due to it's construction. As the strut mounts are required maintenance anyhow, they are the low-hanging fruit.

Do your strut-mounts pass the "got change" test mentioned above/previously?

IIRC, I paid (2007?) approx. $60.00/pr. for Mount-Savers; and $199.95/pr. for Pro-Mounts, but they included a pair of the required Mount-Savers.

If you wanted to, you could do the ordering and installations; in steps and stages. It may at first appear to be more work, but this will also increase your familiarity with the neighbourhood, giving you opportunities to inspect the working conditions of all the OEM suspension parts, and to gather the required tools and reference materials. Remember that although the separate components, all have different jobs, they are made to function together as a complete "as new" system and will only work as well as, the most worn/damaged or weakest part(s). Proceeding in this fashion may also allow you to begin almost immediately.

For instance, you might consider working just on the front-end of your car first, as the front suspension is more highly loaded, it therefore sees more wear. You might get just a pair of Mount-Savers, a pair of new OEM <u>Sachs/Boge</u> strut-mounts and replace just your fronts to start with.

Later, as time and funds allow, you might order a set of Pro-Mounts, and replace your fronts <i>again</i>, moving your recent (see above) "new OEM Sachs/Boge strut-mounts w/Mount-Savers", to the more lightly-loaded rear of the car.

It may sound like more work, but on a nineteen(?) year old car, it may also be rather ambitious to think one will only have to "go in" once; to each corner of the car to set everything right.

Tired old A-arm bushings which may appear fine statically in place, are a very good thing to actually eye-ball for damage. While fully installed, you can lever on them to assess their resistance to motion, but this may not tell you the whole story. A full inspection can be accomplished simply by removing <i>just</i> the two bushing's through-bolts on each A-arm (while leaving the outboard ball-joint attached), pull the inboard end of the A-arm down, clear of the sub-frame, and inspect each bushing individually for cracks, rips, and tears to the rubber, and loose metal cores. You can lever on each bushing's centre-core individually with a long bolt. The rubber should be resilient, the metal core immovable; in short like new. It may be helpful to obtain a single new bushing for comparison purposes, if you don't know what "new" is like. The preceding won't really upset your alignment. Some even obtain spare A-arms and re-bush them in advance to speed the next process, if required. Following the factory procedure as to exactly <i>when</i> to re-torque the bushing through-bolts is critical to bushings having any life-expectancy.

Therefore a Bentley maintenance manual should perhaps be; your first modification.

Regarding other reasons to go back, for instance, after you've cleaned, inspected, and lubed (and returned it to base conditions), the entire front anti-roll bar system, consider this; did you know the later versions of the Coupe also had a rear anti-roll bar, and that you can do a retrofit, if yours doesn't have one?

It may help to make yourself a list (...that's what I do).

Lago Blue

As using the correct names and terminology is really key to understanding here and I'm not immediately sure what you mean; between which two, are you referring? Do you mean to compare the "new OEM Sachs/Boge Strut-Mount w/Mount-Saver" to the "Pro-Mount" (both are apples); or the Mount-Saver type I; to II (both are oranges)?

yetiking303

my question was about the 2 versions of the mount savers(you said one was plastic and one was metal), but it looked up the answer so no need waste your time.

my little black coupe was made in 1991 so 18yo. it does have a rear antiroll bar as well as a sun roof, which of coarse doesn't open.

now for a quick story- we(family and I) have a 98 a4, which is about to die from a hard life. so i after much searching i found my self in love with the 1983 Audi coupe(the same one that killed in the picks peak hill climb) after 2 months of searching the entire western sea board for one and a lot of conversations with granddad i realize that it would be hard to find one in somewhere decent condition. my real goal was to find a Audi rally car, but obviously that was imposable. so in this search for the lightest and smallest Audis with the widest track i came across the coupe quattro and the s2 and after some searching and test driving i found one that had 93k and a lifetime services record. and guess what- you'll love it- when he went to get it smogged it failed because it didn't have a check engine light(here in ca its a requirement) so after a audi dealership looked though it they figured out that it didn't have one(sense the car was from Colorado)during this the audi dealership broke the tachometer. one week later the seller went back to complain - eventually they fixed the tack- but broke the computer, then the tack broke- eventually the car was fixed- not at a audi dealer and i finally got my car.

the importance of this is that during that 1.5 month waiting period i searched everything i passable could for these cars- i read ever page on 20v and ever other page that said anything about these cars. although i have forgotten most of it by now.

any way thats my story.

i do have a Bentley manual. was the first thing i got

i have one last question about the promounts- when something goes bad- do you have to buy a full set of promounts or can you just get new mount savers.

Lago Blue

Again good questions sir, and thank-you for searching since, as I said earlier, I have no experience with Mount-Saver II's. Please also bear in mind that we should endeavour to also write for those who would read here quietly, and I in no sense wish to diminish the value of whatever experience and/or knowledge you may have.

But before I get to those questions, I just want to tie-up a couple of points you mentioned, and emphasize, as the root of your complaint (re. the Coupe) appears to be "...except that the body roll is un-nerving.", that with your '91 and it's front and rear bars, until you have refreshed all your <i>entire</i> suspension's attachment points to your otherwise OEM car, you can't honestly complain that it's a design issue that requires welding, soldering or other "re-invention". Often, these are the procrastinations postponing overdue and un-sexy simple maintenance of what's already there and needing attention.

For instance, previously you mentioned "trying to stiffen up the suspension with useless bushings." Bushings cushion what would otherwise be an intolerable ox-cart like ride that would have us visit the dentist more often. The OEM rubber bushings get a lot of verbal abuse, most of that dissappointment is misplaced and due to neglect, rather than any "fault" of the bushing(s). Rubber really is a fantastic material as it both provides spring resistance and is self-damping. It is almost entirely the condition (good or bad) of all the car's bushings that gives us that subjective "feel", which we either love or hate, depending. They are all finite "lifed" items requiring periodic replacement.

What is at the root of many complaints is the fact that there is <i>air</i> in the aged/torn/worn/weathered/hardened strut-mounts, A-arm bushings, and anti-roll bar linkages where there ought to be; fresh tough resilient rubber. If you drive your car into a corner and lean it on "air" (cracked, shrunken, dried etc. bushings, slack in the linkages, etc.), it's going to roll-over onto the door-handles.

Too often, upon replacement, holding the new OEM bushing in your hand beside the old one, the two (twins) look (and feel!) totally unrelated to each other.

As you review the details of the A-arm bushing replacement instructions in your Bentley, and hold a new one in your hands, you will begin to appreciate how they (all eight of them acting together, when new) contribute to the control and feel of your car's perceived roll; <i>and recovery</i>.

I would recommend Audi's own engine and transmission mounts in all but a few cases. One can use various later model transmission mounts, both there and on the rear differential. The closer you stay to the original, the easier the substitution, the lower the cost, yet still provide improved performance over that original part. These up-grades are all search-able.

In general, it is not always necessary to reach up to the highest-hanging fruit, but sometimes (Pro-Mounts on the front axle, for instance) the actual driving feel/guarantee combo makes that higher immediate cost; both more enjoyable and economic.

You will also find articles on filling various OEM mounts with urethane. Again note that this is another form of taking the "air" out of bushings! It won't revive a failed or failing bushing, it may "improve" a new one, your experience may vary. I have had some success with this.

I use an aftermarket polyurethane mount for the centre bushing for the rear differential. This may be too stiff for some.

With your "lifetime services record", you're going to be able to sift through those as part of your survey just like you where examining the physical car. When were all those bushings last changed, anyhow?

Has a Pro-Mount or Mount-Saver ever failed? I don't know, but apparently these gentle folks are happy without Pro-Mounts!

<ul><li><a href="https://www.audiworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2119538&highlight=rally+school
">"Mount-Savers at the Team O'Neil Rally School..." </a></li></ul>

Here's the Mount-Saver and Pro-Mount guarantee spiel (compare it against the Audi guarantee) (I should also add that I think if one's issue was something that was one's own fault, no guarantee should apply, but that's just MHO):

<ul><li><a href="https://www.audiworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18548592">"a lifetime replacement guarantee..." </a></li></ul>

Lago Blue

<p><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/33772/blur.jpg">

Just enough height so that you have a little air between your **** and the obstacle (see photo).

But seriously, I asked a slightly different question and got a most interesting response from the fellow (squidix9) from whose album I posted that photo.

<ul><li><a href="https://www.audiworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2129285&highlight=springs
">Are there particular most effective ride heights for minimum roll & maximum cornering ability?..
</a></li></ul>
A simple exercise to help you visualize the practical limit for raising the car would be to put it on a four-armed hoist and raise it till the tires are just; still touching. This is the extent to which the suspension can extend. It looks something like this (below).

<p><img src="https://forums.audiworld.com/picture.php?albumid=33772&pictureid=39995">

yetiking303

man i would kill for that paint job....

anyway- thanks for all the help, looks like i have some saving to do.

once again, thanks for the help- much apriciated

Daniel