Break-in method
10-06-2005, 08:17 PM
#21
Re: Here's what I don't understand about this...
They are run hard and they do start the seating process, they just can't run the engine the number of required hours to completely seat the rings and still maintain any resonable production schedule.
The dock workers who run your car like a GP from dock to boat to dock also help this process.
If hard break in caused issues, every imported Audi would have issues since those first 10 miles aren't done 'easy'.
The dock workers who run your car like a GP from dock to boat to dock also help this process.
If hard break in caused issues, every imported Audi would have issues since those first 10 miles aren't done 'easy'.
10-06-2005, 08:22 PM
#22
Re: I didn't claim a 900 degree piston ring - if you read my posts.
You said the piston rings get annealed.
Annealing requires 900 to 1100 degree temperatures.
The piston rings either have to be in this temperature range, or they have to not be annealed.
Which is it?
Annealing requires 900 to 1100 degree temperatures.
The piston rings either have to be in this temperature range, or they have to not be annealed.
Which is it?
10-06-2005, 08:55 PM
#23
Annealing temp depends on the steel. Temp of rings also depends on friction created at break-in
If the links you posted are to be taken seriously, then the ones I posted regarding annealing via friction have the same weright.
Again, I have personal hard evidence that the conservative method I'm using, works great :-D I look forward to you presenting some info that isn't second hand and isn't mis-interpreting my info. :-)
Again, I have personal hard evidence that the conservative method I'm using, works great :-D I look forward to you presenting some info that isn't second hand and isn't mis-interpreting my info. :-)
10-06-2005, 09:17 PM
#24
Yes
Yes annealing temp depends on the steel. Most steel grades require between 900 and 1150 degrees, some are significantly higher. No engine grade steel can be annealed at temperatures lower than this range.
Annealing is physical process that requires this temperature range.
How you arrrive at this temperature range (applied heat, friction generated, or both) is irrelevant.
You're either at 900-1100 degrees, or you're not annealing.
So are the piston rings at 900 degrees?
Or are they not annealed?
Annealing is physical process that requires this temperature range.
How you arrrive at this temperature range (applied heat, friction generated, or both) is irrelevant.
You're either at 900-1100 degrees, or you're not annealing.
So are the piston rings at 900 degrees?
Or are they not annealed?
10-06-2005, 09:51 PM
#25
Since you aren't an engine engineer, you can't answer that, nor can I. So if you can't prove
that it doesn't hit 900 degrees in hot spots, then I don't need to prove that it does. I've posted websites that say annealing happens. Why depend on the info of any of the websites either you or I posted? If you can cry BS at those websites, then I can do the same for yours. Both not verifiable. Internet heresay.
You're depending on info passed along on the internet, and I'm basing my break-in experience on actual personal long term experience. Nitpicking at details in this thread won't make real cars that remain in excellent condition long past your benchmark, go away.
Personal experience with running in numerous cars at go over 100K miles? No? Pass :-)
You're depending on info passed along on the internet, and I'm basing my break-in experience on actual personal long term experience. Nitpicking at details in this thread won't make real cars that remain in excellent condition long past your benchmark, go away.
Personal experience with running in numerous cars at go over 100K miles? No? Pass :-)
10-06-2005, 10:29 PM
#26
Agreed. The owner's manual says nothing about this method. If car makers thought that
using an aggressive break-in procedure would make their cars faster and last longer, they would specify it in the owner's manual. Especially the **** Germans ;-) Instead, page 265 of the owner's manual says:
"The engine needs to be run in during the first 1000 miles (1500km).
<b>For the first 600 miles (1000km):</b>
Do not use full throttle.
Do not drive faster than 3/4 of the top speed marked on the speedometer.
Avoid high engine speeds.
<b>From 600 to 1000 miles (1000km to 1500km):</b>
Speeds can <i>gradually</i> (their italics, not mine) be increased to the maximum permissable road or engine speed.
<b> During and after break-in period </b>
Do not rev up to high speeds when it is cold. This applies whether the transmission is in (N) neutral or in gear.
<b>After the break-in period</b>
Do not exceed maximum engine speed under any circumstances.
Upshift into the next higher gear <i>before</i> reaching the red area at the end of the tachometer scale.
During the first few hours of driving, the engine's internal friction is higher than later when all the moving parts have been broken in. How well this break-in process is done depends to a considerable extent on the way the vehicle is driven during the first 1000 miles (1500km).
<i>Extremely</i> high engine speeds are automatically reduced. However, these rpm-limits were programmed for an engine well run-in, <i> not </i> a new engine."
"The engine needs to be run in during the first 1000 miles (1500km).
<b>For the first 600 miles (1000km):</b>
Do not use full throttle.
Do not drive faster than 3/4 of the top speed marked on the speedometer.
Avoid high engine speeds.
<b>From 600 to 1000 miles (1000km to 1500km):</b>
Speeds can <i>gradually</i> (their italics, not mine) be increased to the maximum permissable road or engine speed.
<b> During and after break-in period </b>
Do not rev up to high speeds when it is cold. This applies whether the transmission is in (N) neutral or in gear.
<b>After the break-in period</b>
Do not exceed maximum engine speed under any circumstances.
Upshift into the next higher gear <i>before</i> reaching the red area at the end of the tachometer scale.
During the first few hours of driving, the engine's internal friction is higher than later when all the moving parts have been broken in. How well this break-in process is done depends to a considerable extent on the way the vehicle is driven during the first 1000 miles (1500km).
<i>Extremely</i> high engine speeds are automatically reduced. However, these rpm-limits were programmed for an engine well run-in, <i> not </i> a new engine."
10-07-2005, 06:35 AM
#27
Re: Since you aren't an engine engineer, you can't answer that, nor can I. So if you can't prove
There's a big difference. I'm crying BS at an known urban legend that doesn't stand up to any analysis. One that you brought up to make a claim you can't support.
I'm crying BS at a claim that defies reality. You can't explain, nor can anyone else, because it's phycially impossible.
There's no wiggle room on this. It's physics. It's like making ice, if you don't have a temperature that's below the feezing point of water, no ice.
Same for annelaing steel. If you don't have temperatures of at least 900 degrees, you don't get annealing.
More importantly, annealing requires multiple hour long eposures to this temperature range.
I can prove that this doesn't happen simply because it's impossible. Piston rings at sustained 900 degree temperatures would vaporize the oil film and instantaneaously ignite injected fuel, generating no power for the downstroke. The engine would not run.
If you would like to provide an explanation that counters this. I'd love to hear it.
I'll state once more that I do not doubt your claim that easy break has worked for you and your cars. I'm waiting for an explanation of how hard break in causes compression reduction and oil consumption.
I'm crying BS at a claim that defies reality. You can't explain, nor can anyone else, because it's phycially impossible.
There's no wiggle room on this. It's physics. It's like making ice, if you don't have a temperature that's below the feezing point of water, no ice.
Same for annelaing steel. If you don't have temperatures of at least 900 degrees, you don't get annealing.
More importantly, annealing requires multiple hour long eposures to this temperature range.
I can prove that this doesn't happen simply because it's impossible. Piston rings at sustained 900 degree temperatures would vaporize the oil film and instantaneaously ignite injected fuel, generating no power for the downstroke. The engine would not run.
If you would like to provide an explanation that counters this. I'd love to hear it.
I'll state once more that I do not doubt your claim that easy break has worked for you and your cars. I'm waiting for an explanation of how hard break in causes compression reduction and oil consumption.
10-07-2005, 08:20 AM
#28
You don't need consistant heat in the entire ring to
have one friction point. Running hot enough can and does burn holes in pistons. What transfers heat from the piston to the block/cylinder wall? Rings.
"S&S "loose fit" specifications give the rider more break-in leeway as they allow him to run the engine at higher rpms sooner without generating significant amounts of extra heat. Less heat means the pistons will be less likely to "seize" in the cylinder bores with the resultant galling. The sacrifices that he makes are: less total miles because the clearance/wear established over many miles of operation is taken away right from the start, poorer piston ring seal and less overall ring life, and more piston noise because the pistons are free to move around more in the cylinders......
As the piston travels up and down within the cylinder bore, friction generated from the new piston rings on the freshly bored cylinder walls causes the edges of the rings to get extremely hot. This process is necessary to properly "seat" the rings, pistons and cylinder wall mating surfaces. If they get too hot, they begin to wear excessively and prevent the seating process from taking place. The result is hot combustion gases blow by the rings down the piston skirts. As this "blow-by" increases, the pistons, piston rings and the surrounding cylinder walls get hotter and hotter. The heat literally burns and dries the oil film on the cylinder walls faster than the lubrication system can replenish it. The key word here is heat, because if it continues unchecked, scuffing occurs between the cylinder walls and the piston skirts. As the piston skirts get hotter, the piston begins to expand causing more friction and more heat. This vicious circle continues until the piston gets too large for the cylinder bore; the piston skirts begin to melt and stick to the cylinder walls; the skirts become galled and the pistons seize in the cylinders. Destruction of a piston can literally take place in seconds."
http://www.jpcycles.com/Tech/Articles/enginebreak.aspx
"Initially the high spots need to be worn down enough so that a little excessive engine heat does not reduce the clearances to interferences, with the resultant seizure between any of those bearings against their mating surfaces. Normal operation of the engine will wear those high spots down pretty quickly. But in the meantime the engine load must be keep to a minimum to keep the heat level below the point of excess expansion of the mating bearing surfaces. Such expansion can lead to the surfaces being microscopically welded together, ripping the bearing's surfaces, and ruining the bearing and its mating surface."
"Fuel burning engines produce enormous amounts of heat; temperatures can reach up to 4,000 degrees F when the air-fuel mixture burns. However, normal operating temperature is about 2,000 degrees F. The cooling system removes about one-third of the heat produced in the combustion chamber."
http://piled-arms.com/tech32.html
"In the first 15 to 30 minutes you run your motor, there can be very small hot spots that get to temperatures that are really not at all healthy for your motor. The motor overall is a large system and will almost certainly not overheat, but this doesn't mean every little spot on your pistons, rings, bearings, and cylinder walls is within temperature spec. Of course, you don't want to overheat your motor. "
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/NewBike.html
Why should I trust some guy who creates a slick website that recommends a break-in procedure that runs counter to what the manufacturer tells me to do. Will he pay for the engine if it fails?
"S&S "loose fit" specifications give the rider more break-in leeway as they allow him to run the engine at higher rpms sooner without generating significant amounts of extra heat. Less heat means the pistons will be less likely to "seize" in the cylinder bores with the resultant galling. The sacrifices that he makes are: less total miles because the clearance/wear established over many miles of operation is taken away right from the start, poorer piston ring seal and less overall ring life, and more piston noise because the pistons are free to move around more in the cylinders......
As the piston travels up and down within the cylinder bore, friction generated from the new piston rings on the freshly bored cylinder walls causes the edges of the rings to get extremely hot. This process is necessary to properly "seat" the rings, pistons and cylinder wall mating surfaces. If they get too hot, they begin to wear excessively and prevent the seating process from taking place. The result is hot combustion gases blow by the rings down the piston skirts. As this "blow-by" increases, the pistons, piston rings and the surrounding cylinder walls get hotter and hotter. The heat literally burns and dries the oil film on the cylinder walls faster than the lubrication system can replenish it. The key word here is heat, because if it continues unchecked, scuffing occurs between the cylinder walls and the piston skirts. As the piston skirts get hotter, the piston begins to expand causing more friction and more heat. This vicious circle continues until the piston gets too large for the cylinder bore; the piston skirts begin to melt and stick to the cylinder walls; the skirts become galled and the pistons seize in the cylinders. Destruction of a piston can literally take place in seconds."
http://www.jpcycles.com/Tech/Articles/enginebreak.aspx
"Initially the high spots need to be worn down enough so that a little excessive engine heat does not reduce the clearances to interferences, with the resultant seizure between any of those bearings against their mating surfaces. Normal operation of the engine will wear those high spots down pretty quickly. But in the meantime the engine load must be keep to a minimum to keep the heat level below the point of excess expansion of the mating bearing surfaces. Such expansion can lead to the surfaces being microscopically welded together, ripping the bearing's surfaces, and ruining the bearing and its mating surface."
"Fuel burning engines produce enormous amounts of heat; temperatures can reach up to 4,000 degrees F when the air-fuel mixture burns. However, normal operating temperature is about 2,000 degrees F. The cooling system removes about one-third of the heat produced in the combustion chamber."
http://piled-arms.com/tech32.html
"In the first 15 to 30 minutes you run your motor, there can be very small hot spots that get to temperatures that are really not at all healthy for your motor. The motor overall is a large system and will almost certainly not overheat, but this doesn't mean every little spot on your pistons, rings, bearings, and cylinder walls is within temperature spec. Of course, you don't want to overheat your motor. "
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/NewBike.html
Why should I trust some guy who creates a slick website that recommends a break-in procedure that runs counter to what the manufacturer tells me to do. Will he pay for the engine if it fails?
10-07-2005, 09:50 AM
#29
Nice dodge.
Why don't you stop dodging the question.
How can you anneal a piston ring when it's physically impossible to maintain the temperatures and time required to anneal steel in a running engine?
Ironically, your third paragraph describes one of the reasons why the annealing process is impossible in a running engine.
Again, I'm not trying to convince you to alter your break-in method. I'm not doubting your own faith in your experience.
You claimed that hard break-in results in reduced compression and increased oil consumption, and subsequently blamed these on annealed piston rings.
You have yet to describe how it's possible to maintain a sustained piston ring temperature of 900 degrees.
____________________________________
On the off chance that you pull a rabbit out of your hat and successfully suspend the laws of physics, let's just pretend my hard breakin engine has annealed it's piston rings.
Annealing is the process of removing brittleness from a metal. Annealed steel is pliable, it bends rather than breaks or chips.
How does an annealed piston ring that's now more pliable and can better conform to the cylinder wall cause decreased compression and oil consumption?
How can you anneal a piston ring when it's physically impossible to maintain the temperatures and time required to anneal steel in a running engine?
Ironically, your third paragraph describes one of the reasons why the annealing process is impossible in a running engine.
Again, I'm not trying to convince you to alter your break-in method. I'm not doubting your own faith in your experience.
You claimed that hard break-in results in reduced compression and increased oil consumption, and subsequently blamed these on annealed piston rings.
You have yet to describe how it's possible to maintain a sustained piston ring temperature of 900 degrees.
____________________________________
On the off chance that you pull a rabbit out of your hat and successfully suspend the laws of physics, let's just pretend my hard breakin engine has annealed it's piston rings.
Annealing is the process of removing brittleness from a metal. Annealed steel is pliable, it bends rather than breaks or chips.
How does an annealed piston ring that's now more pliable and can better conform to the cylinder wall cause decreased compression and oil consumption?
10-07-2005, 10:29 AM
#30
I already gave you the website that mentioned annealing.
BTW, Annealing softens the material. Do you want soft rings?
I've proven my methods many miles and years ago - that places the onus on you to prove your theories. Not via second hand info mind you - but actual experience. In addition, why bother with theories that run counter to what the manufacturer wants you to do during break-in - given they have used considerable resources determining the best break-in methods?
I've given you all the data you need to raise reasonable doubts about the hard break-in methods, but you choose to ignore them. That's fine. Your mind was made up at the start.
I'm bored talking to someone who deliberately fixates on nitpicking instead of looking at the end physical evidence, so go ahead and talk to yourself if you like, but I'm done wasting time.
I've proven my methods many miles and years ago - that places the onus on you to prove your theories. Not via second hand info mind you - but actual experience. In addition, why bother with theories that run counter to what the manufacturer wants you to do during break-in - given they have used considerable resources determining the best break-in methods?
I've given you all the data you need to raise reasonable doubts about the hard break-in methods, but you choose to ignore them. That's fine. Your mind was made up at the start.
I'm bored talking to someone who deliberately fixates on nitpicking instead of looking at the end physical evidence, so go ahead and talk to yourself if you like, but I'm done wasting time.