RogDog

I had a '01 S4 Avant that I gave up because my wife and I had a child. We routinely have to carry four adults and the child in the car and that wasn't going to work with the Avant. But especially looking back, I wish there was some way I could have kept the S4.

Even though the S4 is on the heavy side, it's pretty much going to outperform the A3 across the board. I'm interested in the A3 because I'm not quite so performance-happy as I used to be and I want something fun, tossable, and more economical.

But if I had an S4 now, especially a reliable one, I'd have to test drive the A3 A LOT to determine that I liked it enough to give up a B5 S4. The B5 S4 is truly a special car, and I will always miss mine.

dsl

Good to hear another S4 owner shopping in this space.

Somewhat like you, I don't mind taking a step down in (engine) performance, but I definitely want a better handler since I drive so much in through tight technical twisties, and yes the S4 is a bit porky, but there's a few good options.

I test drove the R32 and I did find it better handling/more fun than the S4, primarily do to weight reduction. But as it was so limited, you basically could only get a beat on 300+ mile demo at full retail, and w/2 doors. Was hoping the A3 might be a new 4dr R32.

Then there's the Mini Cooper S... man, that car's really light and great handling (heck, a standard non-S Mini slaughters the A3 in the handling tests), but of course at a practicality trade-off with space and AWD.. But I do have my wife's SUV as a back-up, however.

The E90 330i w/sport package is a leading contender. Haven't driven it yet but review look awesome and I thought the E46 330i w/SP, did handle better than the S4 when I was shopping in '01. Can't imagine an xi is better (since you can't get a real sport package), but the i w/SP should definitely be. Once again, going to have rely on wife's AWD for those really nasty snow days.

Sigh... so it looks like it's AWD or awesome handling, you can't have both.. at least not yet.

dsl

A std non-S Mini Cooper wears bicycle-like 175/65/15 all-seasons, the 2.0 A3 wears 225/45/17 all-seasons (same size as my S4, BTW). The std Mini slaughters the A3 in both skidpad & slalom (if you trust R&T). It's certainly possible that Mini spooned on some wide, low profile Mich. Pilot Spts, but not likely. The Mini Cooper S proportionately slaughters the std. Mini. on handling stats.

Put the Pirelli AS 225/45/17 on an M3 and I guarantee that it would not rank in the bottom 5-10% of those R&T test cars. Q-rate snow tires on hot summer day.... then I might agree.

But I do definitely agree with you that it is your own perception of the car that matters most... everything else is just academic. I will test an A3 quattro and see for myself.

RogDog

Although you're a bit more concerned about the handling than I am. The A3 I test drove (Std. suspension) was fine, but I'd probably opt for the Sport package. If I found that lacking, I'd start tinkering with better tires and aftermarket suspensions to get it where I want it.

My serious contenders at the moment are:

A3 2.0T: (Leads the pack, but I REALLY want quattro.) I can probably wait another 6 -12 months to see if AoA opts to bring it over.)

Mini Cooper S: Really like the Mini, but I have serious concerns about practicality.

VW GTI (the new one): If Audi decides not to offer quattro on the A3 2.0T, I may just decide to save a few thousand and go with the GTI. I will have to test drive it first and see how it compares to the A3.

That's about it for the hot hatches I'm considering. There's still the chance that I might decide to go even more practical and just get an AWD sedan in the price range--something like a Subaru Legacy GT or the Mazdaspeed6. But I would really like to stick with German marques if I can.

qfrog Ti20

1. You have to weigh accessable performance vs peak performance. If you use 100% of a car that is a 7 but only 66% of a car that is a 10 what then... ???

2. AUDI does not void your warranty, the dealer might not honor it. If you want to play you gotta pay, thats the name of the game. Dont make silly requests of the dealer, thank them for what they do right (donuts maybe?). Try being a nice customer and if none of that works, try a different dealership.

3. Save your spare parts, swap them back in when you turn the car back in at the end of the lease.

4. Yes ditch the stock rubber and put it back on at the conclusion of the lease, you will be paying for the tires then anyways. This way you will have had good rubber to use for a couple of years not crap and then have to buy new tires for the next owner.

This car is largely a GTI with 5 doors and audi sheet metal/ interior appointments. It has 4 wheel independant suspension unlike previous FWD A platform cars. If you tune it, it will handle. Hell, any A chassis car can handle once you tweak it enough. Just as any B chassis will too. Everything from an audi 4000 quattro to a B7 S4 can handle quite well once configured properly.

I would not hesitate to buy one because of the stock suspension tuning, hell the first thing I'd do to it is a cup kit or coilovers.

qfrog Ti20

it also has a lower center of gravity and is probalby a good bit lighter. Its not the same size of car... apples to oranges. Like your S4 to an A8.

The scale of the car to the course is off. Slalom courses favor tiny cars because they are narrower and shorter which makes the course feel larger and the turns less restrictive.

cpurick

It's not all about the tires, but all other factors the same, tires make a big diff on the same car.

walkerhound1

There you go, drive one and see for yourself. As for the R&T data, I don't believe it-- or more precisely, it's not respresentative of the non-sport package's capabilities. Other sources show .82/.83g skidpad numbers with the same set-up. If I wanted to optimize handling, I'd go start with tires & a rear bar, but (and this is probably a minority view), the P6s aren't that bad & can be pushed after they are broken in--you just have to get comfortable with some of the noises they make.

dsl

I wasn't the person that said:

"You can have a vehicle with extraordinary handling dynamics that will have poor handling metrics if the tires are weak-performing all-season types. Put a set of P6 FourSeasons on an M3 and see how crappy the #s it'll put out also. "

Tires do make a difference, but so to does the base car.

And, exactly to your point, what I can't figure out, is why the A8 (ummmm and every other *larger* Audi) still crushes the A3, given it's lighter weight, shorter wheelbase, and narrow body?

dsl

I too questioned the R&T data... it just didn't seem likely that the smallest, lightest 4dr Audi would post the worst stats. R&T could have a defective car, or lousy test driver, who knows. So, looking through a bunch of other car mags, I certainly didn't see any more in the 0.70's Gs, but did see G #s in the low 0.80s (with yet another magazine commenting on these being "middling" handling stats). I'm concerned, however, that scores in the low 0.80s were sport package cars (& couldn't tell from the short paragraph write-ups).

Can anyone refer to road test where the A3 scored in the high 0.80s?