Volvo_Expert

I may try this fabric tape idea when I install my new tweeters in the front. I currently have the MMI treble at -3 or -4 to get the Hertz harshness knocked down. As for your 4.7uF, i feel that it too high for a cutoff (8400hz) and went with 8uF to cut below 5k since the peerless drop at 4k. Especially since the peerless currently seem so tame in the doors.

I plan to use Hertz or Audison for my rear doors along with ND25 tweeters with 10uF caps in the rear. I may look for a replacement to my front door woofers since the silver flutes are so quiet in a large enclosure/door. I believe they need a small enclosure to get true mid range/bass out of them and its lacking right now. May replace the silver flutes with DSA175-8's as recommended by others.

Crazydrummer

I ended up with a 6.8uf on the a-pillars after testing up to an 8uf fwiw. (tried 4.7, 5.6, 6.8,8),

Also, after doing this in an a5 and now an s5. I SWEAR the s5 amp is tuned differently. I have nothing to back this up but my ears

bruce_miranda

It's also possible that those two cars had different B&O firmware. Audi changed things to stop the OEM woofers from blowing.

Nikon1

@bruce_miranda — any idea when that B&O f/w changed (model year / B9 / B9.5)? Are there any methods to check the B&O revision level?

Thank You!

— John

Glisse

That's a great result, and trying different cap values definitely the way to go.

Re. your earlier musings (Le Mans weekend, busy!):

• Wouldn't worry too much about phase on the tweeters, one way will be half right, the other will be half wrong. The phase is all over the place in the front of the car - it is the 19 Body Problem
• The benefit of an L pad (voltage divider) is that it flattens impedance, so it will attenuate response evenly over the tweeters frequency response. If you just use a single resistor in series, it will attenuate over the first octave or so, then as the tweeter's impedance rises, as they do, then the output will rise along with the impedance. How obvious that will be at >8kHz is debatable. But looking at the curve of the tweeter's impedance (After the crossover point) can suggest whether you would get by with just a single resistor in series, vs adding the second one in parallel. Those tweeters would only need 5W resistors, not the bigger 10W versions. But this may be less an issue for the lower efficiency Dayton tweeters - those Hertz Dieci tweeters were much more efficient.
• The primary benefit of the second order crossover is to get the tweeter out of there quicker. But because the Peerless rolls of at almost 4th order (24dB) at around 4kHz, not really any need to do that. More an issue with the FaitalPRO blend.

Your Dayton woofers have nice specs, and seem a good fit for the Peerless. The Aurum Cantus AC165 are more efficient, and bass monsters, and probably a better match in sensitivity terms to the FaitalPRO. But for tonality, I prefer the Peerless mid ATM. I've ordered a range of inductors for the FaitalPROs and will give them another shot.

I've ordered the ScanSpeak mids. I ordered both the 10M and the 10F versions. Also ordered some ScanSpeak tweeters, and may order some SB Acoustic tweeters as well. There is an SB Acoustic 4" mid that may work, I'm still checking that out. There are many 3 and 3.5" mids that will fit, using the adapters I have bought. But crossing over around 250Hz, and that seems to be the high pass for that shared channel in the front, is too much for all but the most expensive ones. And most of those are lower efficiency anyway.

Good feedback on maximising sealing of the Peerless mids, although your Rolls-Royce foam seals seem to cost more than the Peerless mids

Crazydrummer

Hahaha the foam DID cost more than the speaker now that you say that!! At least I have a ton left over. Tbf I bought it as part of his “door” kit and the discounts essentially got me them “free”.

On another note, moving from a car a slapped with 20sq feet of dynamat into one that has nothing is a BIG difference. Like bigger than I would’ve guessed. I’m trying to do this one a little more professionally on the sound deadening front (hence the rosonix stuff). Going to CLD/dynamat everything, followed by 1/2” fiber sound absorber every where I can minus probably taking the headliner out. Will report back if I think it’s worth it over just regular dynamat. Although I will say the s5 seems a better/more solid/dead/tight together to start with as a base than my a5 did.

Anyone have any recs on a NICE trim removal set, I’m tired of going through them once a year

Also still looking for some oem tweeters/housings if anyone wants to sell their’s. I’ve gotta redo my hack job that’s current in my car with new nd25’s at some point. Figure I ask here before going to eBay

Glisse

Don't forget to factor in the very gentle slope that the first order crossover uses. All speaker manufacturers, when quoting frequency ranges, are basing that on 2nd order crossovers, whose slope is twice as steep. Crossing over 1st order at 5kHz will result in a peak between 2000-4000Hz, which might be okay, might annoy you. You also want to have minimised Dayton output by around 1500Hz, as that is close to the resonant frequency (Fs), and if you have a look at Dayton's excellent spec sheet, where they show phase response, you will see the phase shift that occurs at Fs, and that will may cause either a peak or null with the Peerless mid, and you don't want that at a high level or it will be irritating. Dayton suggest a 2500Hz crossover, but that is of course 2nd order.

Many people here have crossed their tweeters too low as they are using 1st first order crossovers instead of 2nd order, and don't understand the difference. There are good reasons the B&O system is using a 8kHz+ 1st order slope via the 4.7uF cap, people who laughed and said use 10uF caps to move the crossover down to 3500kHz or so didn't know what they were doing.


https://www.daytonaudio.com/images/r...ifications.pdf

As the Peerless is dropping from 4000kHz at a 24dB/octave rate (4th order), if you want to precisely match that 4000kHz, then you should use a 4th order high pass on the Dayton at around 4200Hz (two caps, two inductors). But that seems a step too far.

Not surprised Crazydrummer liked 6.8uF best. But you don't know until you try, but maybe try a couple of lower value caps just in case.

Those Dayton DSA175-8's that Crazydrummer is using look good spec wise, and certainly very good value. Unlike the mids, there are many 8 ohm 165/170mm speakers that could be suitable. If committed to the Peerless mids, you want to keep efficiency to 88dB or lower to avoid overpowering the mids. This woofer is not midrange at all, it is producing bass from 50Hz to 250Hz. You don't want a 6.5" mid that is designed to play up at 5kHz at the expense of performance <100Hz, which some of them are. You need something with an Fs (resonant frequency) ideally 40Hz or below. Plenty suggest that the QTS for a bass door speaker should be around 0.60, but that is not a rule that seems to be correct. probably because no one is quite sure what the woofer is "seeing" in the door position. Crudely, I think it sees the space it vents into at the rear, between the outer and inner doors skins, as a lossy sealed enclosure. certainly not a ported one, and certainly not IB or OB.

Whilst I've seen photos in the forums here of the Silver Flute installed and it is on Bobby's list (unlike the Dayton 175), I can't recall any comments on sound quality. The specs between the Silver Flute and the Dayton 175 you are now thinking about. Maybe just double check you don't have a phase issue before changing them. Set the sub to minimum, using the fader/balancer, move from front hard left to front hard right - the bass should be strongest in the middle, if it is stronger hard left or hard right, then the two door woofers are out of phase with each other.

Then try this, what I typically do trying to balance everything:

1. Set Focus to All
2. Turn 3D and Surround to off/minimum.
3. Set both treble and bass to minimum
4. Set subwoofer to minimum
5. Listen for a couple of minutes - predominantly to the Peerless mids, although the other speakers are playing, at lower levels. The Peerless sound nice and smooth, well balanced. I am always surprised how much output is coming from the centre mid, maybe too much.
6. Start increasing the treble - I am stopping 4 clicks down from centre, using the factory tweeters. With those hot Hertz Dieci tweeters, I'd be surprised if you could make it that far before the highs start sounding brittle and etched.
7. I then bring up the bass. With the Aurum Cantus AC165, I need to stop around 3 clicks down from centre. You should be hearing the bass getting deeper and punchier, until you go too far and the midrange starts sounding a bit thin and weedy.
8. I then bring up the sub, this should do relatively little unless you go too far and the bass becomes boomy and the rear view mirror falls off. As you start turning up the sub, the Silver Flutes should seem to be playing a bit more loudly. If they don't, and the mid bass actually seems to recede a bit when you start turning up the sub (assuming it's setting are in the ballpark), then there is some phase cancellation between the sub and the front door woofers. Try swapping the speaker wires at the Kicker sub (when the system is off) to change phase 180° and see if the Silver Flutes sound better that way. Although you didn't like the Flutes before you fired up the sub, so maybe no point.

After I do all that, I then add one click to the bass and the sub, as engine/exhaust/road noise/talking passengers etc seems to eat these up a bit. I like to use 3D set to Low (which lifts brightness a lot) and Surround set to around 10am to lift the sound stage and give me better separation. I need to turn down the treble one more click when I do this.

I am going to be interested to hear what you find replacing all the tweeters in the car with Daytons. Over the years there have been mixed reports, often from the same people, who suggest changing all the tweeters is unnecessary vs it makes a big difference.

Volvo_Expert

It definitely isnt a phase issue. I was not impressed with them when I had one door speaker installed, balanced the audio to that door, and listened with the door panel off. Also, I have the MMI bass set to +5 or so to get more from the mids. I think it has to deal with the speakers requiring an enclosure but could be wrong. I plan to pull the door panels off to reseal my peerless mids and will play with the silver flutes while in there.

I am by no means a genius or know it all so i value your input. Back in the day i worked as a custom car audio installer in 2000-2004 at Tweeter in King of Prussia, PA. I use to do huge custom systems and fiberglass enclosures back in the day before moving on to be a Master/Expert tech for Volvo. Back then we didnt use individual capacitors for crossovers and instead used the boxes component sets. That being said, I will order some more capacitors and play around with cut off to match the peerless drop. I wish I could find a pre-made 2nd order crossover for 4500 or 5k high pass as that would be ideal in my opinion.

I still need to install my modified peerless in the center position and torn whether I should waste time on the center tweeter or not.

What are you guys doing for the rear speakers for crossovers? Are you bothering to low pass the mid?

Crazydrummer

https://www.parts-express.com/5-kHz-...472?quantity=1

here ya go! I bought a couple to use in my a-pillars but ended up liking the 6.8uf 1st order.

and just using a 1st order low pass @ like 5k and an 8uf cap on the back tweeter. Prob not ideal, but what Bobby was using at the time and sounds good.

Honestly, I’m about to start a “what is your current audio setup” thread, so we can keep track of what we’re all actually running

Glisse

Something doesn't sound right if you have to crank the bass up to +5. The Silver Flutes you have are the 8ohm versions, not the 4 ohm versions? The amp will not tolerate 4 ohms there, and will likely cut power to those channels.

The Aurum Cantus AC165 are strong in the bass with excellent definition, but are hard to get in Europe and possibly more than you want to spend. An alternative to the Aurum Cantus in terms of bass punch could be Ciare.

Despite Bobby's comment in his spreadsheet, the one person who used a Ciari HWG160 8 ohm 165mm/6.5" and posted details on the install liked it. Easy to get in Europe. As it happens, he was from Germany, and he seemed fanatical on getting things right:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/aud.../#post25582981
He also liked the Dayton tweeters, and used FaitalPRO 4F32 mids, but used an inductor with them - a good move. Ciare also have another less expensive model, the HWB160, which also should deliver good bass in the door:

• https://www.ciare.com/en/products/lf...r/6.5/8/HWG160
• https://www.ciare.com/en/products/lf...r/6.5/8/HWB160
• https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/bra...mpedance=11078

Note it is the HWG and HWB that are the two Ciare 8 ohm models optimised for car (ie door) use, the other 11 8 ohm models they make are for home or pro audio use, and may not work in a door.

But Crazydrummer likes his Dayton DSA175-8, so they seem a great option at their price point.

There are various 2nd order crossovers available. The problem is that that for two way 2nd order crossovers (mid low pass, tweeter high pass) the location where Audi splits the cabling is unknown, and possible painful to trace. If just using a single way 2nd order crossover, there isn't enough room on the A pillars for the typically oversized boxes.

The 2nd order crossover for the tweeter isn't too bad though, just adding one inductor (coil) that connects in parallel (so connects between positive and negative wires). For the Dayton (which has 3.7 ohms impedance at 4700kHz) a 2nd order is:

Source: https://www.v-cap.com/speaker-crossover-calculator.php

Ignore the low pass and C2/L2 info, as you don't need to low pass the Peerless as it's rolling off itself. I used Linkwitz-Riley calcs as you can just re-use the existing B&O cap if you wanted to, although I'd buy a better one. Then you just need to add the L1 inductor rated at 0.26mH. As per the diagram, the coil has to be connected after the capacitor. Coils are sensitive to magnetic fields, so you want to keep it away from the tweeter, use some hook-up wire to get it away if needed. An example of the inductor needed:
en.toutlehautparleur.com/loudspeaker-components/

But only think of doing this if you are fanatical. Try your 1st order 8uF cap first, if it's still too bright for you, try lower values until it sounds right to your ears. Other people's ears don't matter.

I use an Audison AP6.5 in the rear doors with the factory tweeters. The sound is good in the rear (with focus set to All), and the sub provides a massage seat function there as well. Depending what you use for rear mids will determine what you need re-crossover with the Daytons. Here, you could use a pre-made two way crossover, eg:
https://www.caraudio-store.de/Hertz-MPCX-2-TM3