"America has no real dyno" ECU Tuning by Singh Autosport
10-20-2008, 08:04 PM
#1
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"America has no real dyno" ECU Tuning by Singh Autosport
I've been shopping around for an ECU upgrade for my 07 S5. Found a local tuner by the name Singh Autosport...prior to this I've never heard of them, so I reached out to them with some common ECU tuning questions but came away with even more questions in my head. The following is my correspondence with them, interpret it as you deem fit.
Q1 from me:
Hello there,
What sort of gains are attainable with your S5 ECU program? Any dyno-sheets available? Thanks in advance.
A1 from Singh Autosport:
The gains are around 22-24hp, I'll have to look for the dyno sheets (we do all our tests in Germany on a real dyno... please read our FAQ's page). References are available from Audi dealerships.
Q2 from curious me when I didn't get a dyno sheet:
Hello Jag,
It's alright if you do not have a dyno handy. If I proceed with ecu tuning through Singh, I will have a dyno performed prior to the tune and then another dyno afterwards and at least 100 travelled miles. I will be outsourcing the dyno to 034motorsport or dynospot which are close by.
A2 from Singh Autosport:
PLEASE READ OUR FAQ's PAGE.
There isn't a correct dyno in North America? There's one being built by a Nascar engineer on the East Coast, thats all I know of.
---------- End of Correspondence ----------
My question is if, the tool used to record data remains the common denominator, wouldn't it be a rational and feasible deduction to sort of leverage any standard deviation from pre-tune and post-tune data recordings to assess general gains / loss?
Also note: Their FAQ page also states that "many tuners post dyno sheets with results that have been fabricated."
Lets discuss, I'm apparently very confused lol.
I also tried to look up their UK / German locations via Google but couldn't pull up anything.
Q1 from me:
Hello there,
What sort of gains are attainable with your S5 ECU program? Any dyno-sheets available? Thanks in advance.
A1 from Singh Autosport:
The gains are around 22-24hp, I'll have to look for the dyno sheets (we do all our tests in Germany on a real dyno... please read our FAQ's page). References are available from Audi dealerships.
Q2 from curious me when I didn't get a dyno sheet:
Hello Jag,
It's alright if you do not have a dyno handy. If I proceed with ecu tuning through Singh, I will have a dyno performed prior to the tune and then another dyno afterwards and at least 100 travelled miles. I will be outsourcing the dyno to 034motorsport or dynospot which are close by.
A2 from Singh Autosport:
PLEASE READ OUR FAQ's PAGE.
There isn't a correct dyno in North America? There's one being built by a Nascar engineer on the East Coast, thats all I know of.
---------- End of Correspondence ----------
My question is if, the tool used to record data remains the common denominator, wouldn't it be a rational and feasible deduction to sort of leverage any standard deviation from pre-tune and post-tune data recordings to assess general gains / loss?
Also note: Their FAQ page also states that "many tuners post dyno sheets with results that have been fabricated."
Lets discuss, I'm apparently very confused lol.
I also tried to look up their UK / German locations via Google but couldn't pull up anything.
10-20-2008, 08:44 PM
#2
If tuning for power, you need to dyno at the same facility, using the same equipment,
under as similar weather conditions as possible.
Doesn't matter what dyno, so long as you establish a baseline while stock on one dyno, then new numbers as modified on the same dyno. It is fairly easy to fake out a dyno via a few tricks, or use different dynos for different results.
Find a reputable tuner, get before and after dynos, and call it good.
Maha makes the dynos used by Audi. Several US tuners have this dyno.
IMHO of course.
Doesn't matter what dyno, so long as you establish a baseline while stock on one dyno, then new numbers as modified on the same dyno. It is fairly easy to fake out a dyno via a few tricks, or use different dynos for different results.
Find a reputable tuner, get before and after dynos, and call it good.
Maha makes the dynos used by Audi. Several US tuners have this dyno.
IMHO of course.
10-20-2008, 09:44 PM
#4
Working in the industry, but on the side of the consumer, quantifiable numbers are all that matter.
If you can get apples to apple numbers, then it doesn't matter.
Now reliability and long term durability are important things that should come under consideration, but rarely do. Look at logs and make sure the car isn't running too rich or too lean, and that the timing has not been advanced outside the range of the knock sensors in the extreme.
It's easy to make more power, but the question is for how long? My daily driver is an Italian car noted for unreliability but currently sits at at over 1/4 million miles despite yearly trips to the track and daily trips to the redline. I could easily tune it for more power, but value reliability.
It all depends on your long term goals and if the present car feeds all your requirements.
Now reliability and long term durability are important things that should come under consideration, but rarely do. Look at logs and make sure the car isn't running too rich or too lean, and that the timing has not been advanced outside the range of the knock sensors in the extreme.
It's easy to make more power, but the question is for how long? My daily driver is an Italian car noted for unreliability but currently sits at at over 1/4 million miles despite yearly trips to the track and daily trips to the redline. I could easily tune it for more power, but value reliability.
It all depends on your long term goals and if the present car feeds all your requirements.
10-20-2008, 09:52 PM
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I would seriously doubt if you could get 22-24 bhp out of a NA engine
simply by tuning the chip. You would have to at the min change the intake and the manifold to increase the flow.
BTW - with the recent FSI engines, the tuners have to hack the ECU to get in, and this could void the warranty.
BTW - with the recent FSI engines, the tuners have to hack the ECU to get in, and this could void the warranty.
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10-21-2008, 10:53 AM
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What a great email. Thanks for those points concerning the power-at-all costs...
...attitude that some tuners seem to push, even if it is at the long-term health and reliability of the engine. Cheers to you.
10-21-2008, 11:20 AM
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Very true
I've carefully followed the tuner world for many years, especially as related to my P cars.
I've concluded, as have many others, that ECU tuning on normally aspirated cars is pretty much B.S. It's important to keep in mind that there are many ways to fudge dyno results, and tuners tend to put only their best results online.
Also keep in mind, that for many technical reasons, an improvement on a dyno may actually translate to a reduction in real world performance.
Lastly, the subjective opinion of someone who just spent money on the latest miracle tuning gimmick (i.e. the "butt dyno") is pretty worthless. Many times we've gotten excited about the upgrade of the day, with glowing subjective reports, only to find ultimately that the upgrade does nothing, except maybe make more noise.
A pretty good overview of some of the considerations in dyno testing:
http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dynamometer-testing-and-the-modern-bmw-engine<ul><li><a href="http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dynamometer-testing-and-the-modern-bmw-engine">http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dynamometer-testing-and-the-modern-bmw-engine</a</li></ul>
I've concluded, as have many others, that ECU tuning on normally aspirated cars is pretty much B.S. It's important to keep in mind that there are many ways to fudge dyno results, and tuners tend to put only their best results online.
Also keep in mind, that for many technical reasons, an improvement on a dyno may actually translate to a reduction in real world performance.
Lastly, the subjective opinion of someone who just spent money on the latest miracle tuning gimmick (i.e. the "butt dyno") is pretty worthless. Many times we've gotten excited about the upgrade of the day, with glowing subjective reports, only to find ultimately that the upgrade does nothing, except maybe make more noise.
A pretty good overview of some of the considerations in dyno testing:
http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dynamometer-testing-and-the-modern-bmw-engine<ul><li><a href="http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dynamometer-testing-and-the-modern-bmw-engine">http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info/dynamometer-testing-and-the-modern-bmw-engine</a</li></ul>
