2025 Audi B10 A5 spotted
02-21-2024, 02:57 PM
#151
AudiWorld Senior Member
It was only the EA838 for late 2016 / early 2017, then the 2.9L and 3.0L merged as the EA839. Not too many around that remember the EA838 - it has been expunged from the records!
When I first drove the B58 in an F30, it only had around 330hp and was less punchy in the mid range than the EA839 or the Mercedes 3 litre TT V6. You could pay (quite a lot) for an M Tech chip to get it closer to the other two. Yes, BMW have lifted the power output to 375hp plus a few more from the mild hybrid battery in (very) short bursts. But that's it. On BMW's plug in hybrids with the B58, they produce less ICE power than the EA839 used in VAG products.
The B58 is not inherently more powerful than the EA839. Sure, the current version in the S5 is producing 14kW less power than the B56 version in 340. Big deal. If you looked at the Porsche and Audi plug-in hybrids using the EA839, you will find almost all of them are producing more ICE power than the B58 used in BMW hybrids. Does BMW have some catching up to do to be able to keep up with VAG?
If power is the only criteria, then the C43 was and continues to be the one with the highest power output in this specific category.
Is it likely that Audi will increase outputs for the B10 S models? Probably, but they face some complexity in terms of their global product mix.
When I first drove the B58 in an F30, it only had around 330hp and was less punchy in the mid range than the EA839 or the Mercedes 3 litre TT V6. You could pay (quite a lot) for an M Tech chip to get it closer to the other two. Yes, BMW have lifted the power output to 375hp plus a few more from the mild hybrid battery in (very) short bursts. But that's it. On BMW's plug in hybrids with the B58, they produce less ICE power than the EA839 used in VAG products.
The B58 is not inherently more powerful than the EA839. Sure, the current version in the S5 is producing 14kW less power than the B56 version in 340. Big deal. If you looked at the Porsche and Audi plug-in hybrids using the EA839, you will find almost all of them are producing more ICE power than the B58 used in BMW hybrids. Does BMW have some catching up to do to be able to keep up with VAG?
If power is the only criteria, then the C43 was and continues to be the one with the highest power output in this specific category.
Is it likely that Audi will increase outputs for the B10 S models? Probably, but they face some complexity in terms of their global product mix.
02-21-2024, 04:19 PM
#152
AudiWorld Super User
There is no secret sauce at work here. The EA839 and B58 are both 3 litre engines with a twin scroll turbocharger. In this specific example, one has the wick turned up more than the other.
As I said, when I drove the S5 against the F30 340i, and the B58 had just replaced the N55, both the Audi and the Mercedes were quicker. Didn't make any difference to me, they were all close enough. For some people, the most power on paper or otherwise is very important to their purchase decision. Nothing wrong with that.
Here's a present for you, which I found quite surprising and in contrast to my own experiences. One of the more valuable quality reports comes from Autobild in Germany. They do a 100,000km endurance test, and then the car is entirely dismantled. The top of the leader board for some years has been an Audi A3 (8V), with zero defects. It was just joined in equal first place.
Click on the gallerie icon on the top photo, then scroll down the list:
https://www.autobild.de/artikel/daue...s-1014682.html
Make sure you watch the video from 6'10":
https://www.autobild.de/artikel/bmw-...-23472831.html
02-21-2024, 04:31 PM
#153
AudiWorld Senior Member
I'm not saying power issue everything, it's not (for me either). I was just pointing out that the B58 in current form is a stronger engine than the S5's 3L. I'd say smoother and more reliable as well, but that's also traits that are generally inherent to in inline 6 vs a V6 and that iterations of the B58 have been massaged and refined for many years now. Unfortunately it doesn't sound nearly as good as the 2.9 or 3L Audi engines though.
02-21-2024, 04:34 PM
#154
AudiWorld Super User
Porsche use their own codes, eg MDC.AB (3L), MDC.BE (2.9L).
This is a useful resource:
https://de.mymotorlist.com/motoren/audi/ea839/deca/
02-21-2024, 05:03 PM
#155
AudiWorld Super User
I don't think I posted this earlier in this thread, apologies if I did.
Audi have changed the platform for the B10, which is indicative of their changed stance on little further ICE development. The MLB Evo platform has been further evolved to a new platform called PPC. This is the ICE equivalent of the Audi / Porsche PPE platform, which is about to see the light of day with the Macan EV and Q6 EV. It will incorporate the new electronics system which encompasses all sensors, MMI etc, as well as providing the chassis layout for plug in hybrid.
Audi have changed the platform for the B10, which is indicative of their changed stance on little further ICE development. The MLB Evo platform has been further evolved to a new platform called PPC. This is the ICE equivalent of the Audi / Porsche PPE platform, which is about to see the light of day with the Macan EV and Q6 EV. It will incorporate the new electronics system which encompasses all sensors, MMI etc, as well as providing the chassis layout for plug in hybrid.
Audi RS5 on PPC platform
This also applies to the RS5 Avant, which will only be available as a station wagon version in the next generation. Basically, the new A5 series is based on the PPC basis (Premium Platform Combustion). Unlike the PPE (Premium Platform Electric), the PPC is not developed together with Porsche, but is an evolution of the modular longitudinal construction kit (MLB), on which the Audi models above the A3 and Q3 are based. The platform has a strong focus on plug-in hybrids and a new digital architecture.
The new RS5 Avant is expected to receive a powerful PHEV module in conjunction with the well-known 2.9 liter biturbo V6 engine. The yellow warning sticker in the windshield of the Erlkönig indicates this form of electrification.
Audi design boss Marc Lichte recently stated that the next generation of RS models will be even more striking and aggressive than all previous ones.
Source: Auto Motor und Sport, Feb 2024
Source: Auto Motor und Sport, Feb 2024
02-21-2024, 05:43 PM
#156
AudiWorld Super User
I'm not saying power issue everything, it's not (for me either). I was just pointing out that the B58 in current form is a stronger engine than the S5's 3L. I'd say smoother and more reliable as well, but that's also traits that are generally inherent to in inline 6 vs a V6 and that iterations of the B58 have been massaged and refined for many years now. Unfortunately it doesn't sound nearly as good as the 2.9 or 3L Audi engines though.
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Burrcold (02-22-2024)
02-22-2024, 05:25 AM
#157
I don't think I posted this earlier in this thread, apologies if I did.
Audi have changed the platform for the B10, which is indicative of their changed stance on little further ICE development. The MLB Evo platform has been further evolved to a new platform called PPC. This is the ICE equivalent of the Audi / Porsche PPE platform, which is about to see the light of day with the Macan EV and Q6 EV. It will incorporate the new electronics system which encompasses all sensors, MMI etc, as well as providing the chassis layout for plug in hybrid.
Audi have changed the platform for the B10, which is indicative of their changed stance on little further ICE development. The MLB Evo platform has been further evolved to a new platform called PPC. This is the ICE equivalent of the Audi / Porsche PPE platform, which is about to see the light of day with the Macan EV and Q6 EV. It will incorporate the new electronics system which encompasses all sensors, MMI etc, as well as providing the chassis layout for plug in hybrid.
Audi RS5 on PPC platform
This also applies to the RS5 Avant, which will only be available as a station wagon version in the next generation. Basically, the new A5 series is based on the PPC basis (Premium Platform Combustion). Unlike the PPE (Premium Platform Electric), the PPC is not developed together with Porsche, but is an evolution of the modular longitudinal construction kit (MLB), on which the Audi models above the A3 and Q3 are based. The platform has a strong focus on plug-in hybrids and a new digital architecture.
The new RS5 Avant is expected to receive a powerful PHEV module in conjunction with the well-known 2.9 liter biturbo V6 engine. The yellow warning sticker in the windshield of the Erlkönig indicates this form of electrification.
Audi design boss Marc Lichte recently stated that the next generation of RS models will be even more striking and aggressive than all previous ones.
Source: Auto Motor und Sport, Feb 2024
Source: Auto Motor und Sport, Feb 2024
02-22-2024, 04:01 PM
#158
AudiWorld Super User
Model consolidation is a big thing for all of them at the moment. In part a manufacturing issue, in part a dealership issue. With all the new EV models sprouting up, there is a limit to how many model variants can be supported in both the manufacturing and retail environment.
I don't have any interest for a plug-in hybrid with another 200kg of weight, but it is extremely difficult for manufacturers to meet future emission targets without doing this with high performance models. Plus in places like Germany and the UK, there are huge tax incentives for corporate fleet buyers to go plug-in hybrid. It's all a scam. When AMS tested the new 206 AMG C63S, they got worse fuel consumption than the 205's V8. Admittedly, the new one is much quicker.
This caption sums it up for me:
Source: Auto Motor und Sport, October 2023
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Nikon1 (02-23-2024)
02-22-2024, 05:30 PM
#159
AudiWorld Super User
02-22-2024, 09:28 PM
#160
No RS5 Sportback would probably explain the rumors of the Avant coming to the US in some capacity, but I doubt they'd kill the RS5 Sportback entirely given how the class fares in NA. They still make an RS3 sedan despite the RS3 Sportback being the rage in Europe, and the RS7 is still in full swing even though we still get the RS6 here.