Glisse

Whilst there is a terrific body of work in these forums over the last 4 or 5 years on upgrading the B9 B&O branded system, one area that remains relatively slim pickings is the choice of speakers. Particularly for mids and tweeters. The physical locations and acoustic parameters rule out many options, but it would be good to see an expanded list of potential replacements.

I have tried both the FaitalPRO 4FE32 (8 ohm versions) and the Peerless GBS-115N25AL01-04 in the front door and centre channel positions.

Plenty of people like the FaitalPRO, which are a nicely made speaker at their price point (FaitalPRO is now owned by Alpine), but I find them too bright in most settings. Aggressively so in the centre channel location, and in part because they seem too efficient for that location. It is not possible to directly alter the gain on the centre channel, although the DSP is doing so based on some of the settings. Bobby Kinstle's warnings in his spreadsheet that the Faitals are bright are certainly on the money. I think in part the issue is the FaitalPRO is not a mid, it is a full range speaker. And the door mid channels do not appear to be band passed, as the channel is shared with the lower A pillar tweeter. I am going to try FaitalPro again, in the doors, with an 0.32mH inductor to gently roll it off after 4kHz, or more accurately to stop it peaking at 15kHz, and see if I like them better. I am surprised people are using these with their rise to 15kHz and then using 10uF caps to move 4 ohm tweeter high pass down to 4 kHz (and shelving down at only 6dB an octave from there). Perhaps the tweeters are creating phase cancellation with the Faitals and it all somehow works?! I may not replace tweeters until I am settled on the midrange.


FaitalPRO 4FE32-8

I prefer the tonal balance of the Peerless GBS-115N25AL01-04, as Bobby recommends. It also seems to blend better with the Aurum Cantus AC-165 than the FaitalPRO at the 200Hz crossover region, although that isn't obvious from the frequency plot, except that the FaitalPRO has a rising response all the way through, and you certainly hear that. Both speakers have T/S parameters suggesting they were designed for sealed enclosures rather than an IB, which is what doors and dash better represent. The dispersion from the dome is much better in a car than that of a cone, so you don't need to glue the back of your head to the seat to maintain the soundstage.


Peerless GBS-115N25AL01-04

However, the Peerless has low efficiency, and I find it is easily overpowered by the AC165 bass speaker in the door so I don't think it is perfect in terms of system balance either. So I'm going to try others and see if I find something that works better for me.

A couple of months back, @muilperen posted in the B9 S4 "Complete Guide of speakers..." thread that he had successfully installed a Scan-Speak Silver 10M mid in the doors of his B9. Bit of an unusual setup as he has the base stereo (real base, not the Audi Sound System option) but managed to find some B&O door cards as he wanted to use his Dynaudio Esotec 362 3-way system, which includes the very nice Dynaudio MD42 dome mid, but he couldn't get that to fit. That setup is useless for a B&O system, as the Dynaudio 8" bass crosses over to the dome mdi somewhere around 600Hz. But the 10M (he said the 10F Discovery version also fits in the doors) looks like a contender:


Scan-Speak Silver 10M - 4614G06

So very pleased to see a recent post from @jl226ca in the Basser box: JL subwoofer alternative thread in this sub-forum where he showed his installation of the 10M and SB Acoustics tweeters, which would be a good match without spending Scan-Audio or Dynaudio money for Scandinavian sound tweeters, which I will continue in the next post.

Glisse

Great information and photos @jl226ca, much appreciated! There are so few mids that will both fit and have the right parameters to blend with the B&O DSP, they are like gold!

Where did you get the adapter bracket for the M10's from? Is it a 3D print? I was just going to drill a couple of metal strips to adapt to the bolt holes, but these are more secure. I was not sure whether there would be enough clearance without the pole piece hitting the door frame.

Did you also get this in the centre dash as well?

I like the choice of an SB Acoustics tweeter with the Scan-Audio mid, but a lot of work fitting that in!! But they all require some level of work. Was there a reason you went for this specific model, they have around 35 tweeters last time I looked.

Crazydrummer

I’m moving the system I built from an a5 to an s5. I totally agree the fatials are way too harsh and I think there has to be a better setup. I’ve been running the peerless mids and Dayton tweets but something has always seemed a bit off. I recently ordered to peerless tweeters to try as they have a bit lower freq response.

Do we know the the frequency range driven by the amp to the front mids/tweets? I’ve heard multiple things.

-front door mids and lower a pillar tweets = full range to both the the tweets just have a capacitor?

-front center channel and tweet= full range to both or full range to mid and the tweeter has a high pass?

id measure myself if i had the equipment. I really like the peerless mids, but I think crossovers are the answer to solving what’s missing. Judging by the response curves on the peerless mids and the peerless tweets I just ordered. My thought process is cross them over pretty low. Like 2.5-3k ish. Im thinking use an 1st order plan inductor/-6db slope on the mids to keep the phase and a 2nd order/-12/db hp on the tweets with polarity reversed. Still researching though and open to ideas.

my biggest complaint with the current peerless mids/dayton tweets is 600-1200hz area needs a boost and the 2-3k ish area needs a cut to my ears, and I’m struggling to figure out how to make that happen without cutting the stupid bo amp and going full dsp

bruce_miranda

I have helped people mount a 3 way adjustable crossover unit in the back of the car near the B&O amp. Then take the current front mid/high signal from the B&O amp as the input into the passive crossover. Then push the bandpassed mid output back to the front door mid and the high passed output back to the top A pillar tweeter. The top A pillar tweeters don't use any passive components. You ofcourse have to disconnect the bottom A pillar tweeters. You get left with some error codes due to missing 3D tweeters.
Ofcourse it is made easy by the 38 pin breakout board and a 38 pin B&O connector.

The other option is to go hunt for the joint of the mid and tweeters in the front footwell and house the passive crossover there and split that mid and tweeter pair.

Or design and install a band pass filter in the door for the mids and a high pass filters for the A tweeters in the side fuse boxes.

But we then get into some serious reconfiguration of the audio which most peolle dont want to do.

Glisse

It is pretty easy to get an improvement in one area or another. Maintaining balance across the system not so easy. Irritates some more than others.

I haven't seen anything conclusive on what the B&O/ASK amplifier is outputting on the front mid/HF channels. Bobby Kinstle does note in his spreadsheet how difficult it is to isolate channels. More than that, isolating channels would bring its own set of problem, because London to a brick on, the DSP will be applying phase delays to manage phase response for each channel, based on the OEM speakers. Which means you have to measure the left and right channels at listening position(s). Bobby's estimates seem the best available, and I remember him painstakingly going through this process 5 years or so back - top work. This channel appears to have a high pass somewhere around 200-250Hz. The 4500Hz roll-off for the OEM 4" mid is a mechanical roll-off, I believe. His System Overview suggests the channel has a (DSP) low pass at 12kHz, which seems an odd decision if correct. They don't seem to be doing that anywhere else.

Agree the sound of the Peerless mid is very pleasant. But it has very low efficiency, and that's an issue. The Sca-Speak M10 looks a better fit, although it is much more expensive. STEG also have one that could work, which is even more expensive.

I don't know what bass units you have in the doors, but the Aurum Cantus I bought from Bruce are around 90dB efficiency, which is clearly higher than the OEM speakers. The Dayton tweeters, presumably ND25FN-4, are also 90dB efficiency. So the door woofers and lower A pillar tweeters are playing around 5dB higher than the Peerless mid on average, which is why you feel the 600 to 1200Hz region is a bit low - it is, by around 5dB.

The Peerless has a steep mechanical roll off around 4kHz. I don't think it needs a high pass, and it has wonderful dispersion. What it needs is a low sensitivity tweeter. Or else you need to use an L pad on your Dayton tweeter to drop sensitivity down by 4 to 5dB or so, plus a second order crossover at around 4kHz could work well.

An L pad with a 1.5 ohm resistor in series (R1) and a 7 ohm resistor parallel (R2) will give you around 4dB attenuation on the Dayton tweeter, which will blend better. You could try a single 6 ohm resistor (or use the 7 ohm) in series, which will also give you around 4dB attenuation, but L pads stabilise impedance so are generally preferred. You only need 10w ratings, the high precision ones such as these from Parts Express might be easier to fit in the A pillar than the clunky white ones. Normally you would use these after the filter (cap, or cap and coil if you go 2nd order):
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...1.5?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...6-7?quantity=1
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm

But first try going the other direction with the tweeter - you say you need a cut between 2-3kHz, sounds like you might be using a 10uF cap on the Dayton. The Dayton will then be only 6dB down at 2kHz, and will be summing with the Peerless - which means the frequencies in the 2kHz-4kHz can be up to 6dB higher if their phases are aligning. Try an 8uF cap or even a 6.8uF. The advantage of using something like a 6.8uF on the Dayton is that you will be -6db down at 3kHz, and that will blend much better with the Peerless. You won't notice, or be offended by, the gentle rise of the Dayton to 6kHz and then sitting up at a 90dB level thereafter. And you could also try reversing the polarity of the tweeter, because you might get a better phase response in that 2-3kHz band.

The Peerless tweeter, assuming we are talking about the same one, goes in the wrong direction - they are even more efficient than the Dayton at 96dB/w. Not sure you are going to be happy with them. You would need a 10db attenuation from an L pad for them to match the Peerless mid.

It is a journey!

bruce_miranda

If someone wants to do some proper speaker frequency measurements on a B&O car per channel, I would be quite happy to build and rent out a 38 pin breakout board and 38 pin connector. You can then literally play each channel separately with all the others switched off.
Ofcourse channels like the front door mid and A pillar bottom tweeters will play together. As will the rear door woofers and tweeters.

Volvo_Expert

No reason to design. I ordered these 3.5k low pass crossovers to put in the door to my peerless mids. I am using these because I ordered the Hertz tweeters that come with a 3.5k high pass. I also ordered 8.0uF capacitors to crossover the tweeters at 5k in case the two cross overs meeting at the same 3.5k point creates any issues.

Glisse

A nice idea, and better understanding of the B&O configuration would certainly remove some of the guess work, relying on trial and error, and occasional success.

I suspect replacing speakers is as far as most want to go. There probably comes a point where a deep dive into the B&O/ASK DSP doesn't warrant the effort, and it is easier in terms of time to just grab the MOST signal and start again. Very expensive to do that properly though.

As you mentioned to me separately, not being able to access the DSP, which is buried within the ASK amplifier, really restricts what can be done. Raising the low pass on the door woofers to 500Hz or so would enable potentially better performance from the 4"/100mm mid range via a bandpass as you have proposed. More options in terms of high performance speakers in that position too. Still, there are other options out there, such as the ScanSpeak mids, which now two or three people (reported here)) have used, and like. There will be others.

Glisse

The Peerless mid mechanically rolls off at 4kHz - very steeply, close to 4th order. Why would you add a low pass filter at 3.5kHz?

You are also using a second order low pass on the Peerless, yet are using a first order high pass on the tweeter. So the low pass is rolling off at 12dB/octave, and the high pass is coming in at 6db/octave, ie different slopes. But moot point, no LP filter needed. And you won't need to swap phase, which you would have using the second order filter.

Assuming it is the Hertz Dieci DT24.3 that Bobby Kinstle lists on his spreadsheet, that tweeter will be playing at 94dB efficiency at whatever crossover point you choose, 9db higher than the Peerless. A very noticeable difference (every 3dB is a doubling of power). Probably why Bobby uses the 90dB Dayton tweeter himself. Crossed over at 5kHz. People have recommended the Hertz, and it fits, so Bobby added it. His list are just speakers that people have used, ingredients if you like. But not a recipe. Some will absolutely not work with others.

You might need to damp down the Hertz to avoid it jumping out at you because of the big difference in efficiency. Easily done. Our ears are extremely sensitive to sounds between between 2000 and 4000Hz (how we know where the sabre tooth tiger is coming from), so you want to avoid overlap if you can. That isn't easy using first order filters, and you usually need a bit of trial and error to find the sweet spot. But because the Hertz is so much more efficient, you need over an octave and a half just to have them matching. But that assumes perfect phase, and it won't be perfect, it is chaotic.

So a good idea to buy the 8uF capacitor. Be easier to solder and then tape up the 8uF cap in line than trying to secure the Hertz's plastic box in the A pillar so it doesn't rattle around. If you still find it bright with the 8uF, try the 5.7uF cap in the 2nd order LP filter you bought. IIRC Bobby found that too dull, but that was with Daytons. That will be 6dB down at 3500Hz, which could be a nice transition to the Peerless. Hard to know unless you try, the online calculators always assume perfect phase response, and that doesn't exist in a car.

Glisse

A shout out to Bruce Miranda, who very kindly located the adapter that has been used by jl226ca to fit the ScanSpeak Silver 10M mid shown in his great photos in post #2. I had tracked it being used by an audio installer in Beijing, but couldn't find where they were being sold.

It will be handy for trying some alternative mids such as the 10M or 10F ScanSpeak, and a STEG as well.

Thanks Bruce!

https://a.aliexpress.com/_EyFZmzH