B&O Upgrade: Mids & Tweeters
06-11-2024, 08:22 PM
#11
It is pretty easy to get an improvement in one area or another. Maintaining balance across the system not so easy. Irritates some more than others.
I haven't seen anything conclusive on what the B&O/ASK amplifier is outputting on the front mid/HF channels. Bobby Kinstle does note in his spreadsheet how difficult it is to isolate channels. More than that, isolating channels would bring its own set of problem, because London to a brick on, the DSP will be applying phase delays to manage phase response for each channel, based on the OEM speakers. Which means you have to measure the left and right channels at listening position(s). Bobby's estimates seem the best available, and I remember him painstakingly going through this process 5 years or so back - top work. This channel appears to have a high pass somewhere around 200-250Hz. The 4500Hz roll-off for the OEM 4" mid is a mechanical roll-off, I believe. His System Overview suggests the channel has a (DSP) low pass at 12kHz, which seems an odd decision if correct. They don't seem to be doing that anywhere else.
Agree the sound of the Peerless mid is very pleasant. But it has very low efficiency, and that's an issue. The Sca-Speak M10 looks a better fit, although it is much more expensive. STEG also have one that could work, which is even more expensive.
I don't know what bass units you have in the doors, but the Aurum Cantus I bought from Bruce are around 90dB efficiency, which is clearly higher than the OEM speakers. The Dayton tweeters, presumably ND25FN-4, are also 90dB efficiency. So the door woofers and lower A pillar tweeters are playing around 5dB higher than the Peerless mid on average, which is why you feel the 600 to 1200Hz region is a bit low - it is, by around 5dB.
The Peerless has a steep mechanical roll off around 4kHz. I don't think it needs a high pass, and it has wonderful dispersion. What it needs is a low sensitivity tweeter. Or else you need to use an L pad on your Dayton tweeter to drop sensitivity down by 4 to 5dB or so, plus a second order crossover at around 4kHz could work well.
An L pad with a 1.5 ohm resistor in series (R1) and a 7 ohm resistor parallel (R2) will give you around 4dB attenuation on the Dayton tweeter, which will blend better. You could try a single 6 ohm resistor (or use the 7 ohm) in series, which will also give you around 4dB attenuation, but L pads stabilise impedance so are generally preferred. You only need 10w ratings, the high precision ones such as these from Parts Express might be easier to fit in the A pillar than the clunky white ones. Normally you would use these after the filter (cap, or cap and coil if you go 2nd order):
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...1.5?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...6-7?quantity=1
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
But first try going the other direction with the tweeter - you say you need a cut between 2-3kHz, sounds like you might be using a 10uF cap on the Dayton. The Dayton will then be only 6dB down at 2kHz, and will be summing with the Peerless - which means the frequencies in the 2kHz-4kHz can be up to 6dB higher if their phases are aligning. Try an 8uF cap or even a 6.8uF. The advantage of using something like a 6.8uF on the Dayton is that you will be -6db down at 3kHz, and that will blend much better with the Peerless. You won't notice, or be offended by, the gentle rise of the Dayton to 6kHz and then sitting up at a 90dB level thereafter. And you could also try reversing the polarity of the tweeter, because you might get a better phase response in that 2-3kHz band.
The Peerless tweeter, assuming we are talking about the same one, goes in the wrong direction - they are even more efficient than the Dayton at 96dB/w. Not sure you are going to be happy with them. You would need a 10db attenuation from an L pad for them to match the Peerless mid.
It is a journey!
I haven't seen anything conclusive on what the B&O/ASK amplifier is outputting on the front mid/HF channels. Bobby Kinstle does note in his spreadsheet how difficult it is to isolate channels. More than that, isolating channels would bring its own set of problem, because London to a brick on, the DSP will be applying phase delays to manage phase response for each channel, based on the OEM speakers. Which means you have to measure the left and right channels at listening position(s). Bobby's estimates seem the best available, and I remember him painstakingly going through this process 5 years or so back - top work. This channel appears to have a high pass somewhere around 200-250Hz. The 4500Hz roll-off for the OEM 4" mid is a mechanical roll-off, I believe. His System Overview suggests the channel has a (DSP) low pass at 12kHz, which seems an odd decision if correct. They don't seem to be doing that anywhere else.
Agree the sound of the Peerless mid is very pleasant. But it has very low efficiency, and that's an issue. The Sca-Speak M10 looks a better fit, although it is much more expensive. STEG also have one that could work, which is even more expensive.
I don't know what bass units you have in the doors, but the Aurum Cantus I bought from Bruce are around 90dB efficiency, which is clearly higher than the OEM speakers. The Dayton tweeters, presumably ND25FN-4, are also 90dB efficiency. So the door woofers and lower A pillar tweeters are playing around 5dB higher than the Peerless mid on average, which is why you feel the 600 to 1200Hz region is a bit low - it is, by around 5dB.
The Peerless has a steep mechanical roll off around 4kHz. I don't think it needs a high pass, and it has wonderful dispersion. What it needs is a low sensitivity tweeter. Or else you need to use an L pad on your Dayton tweeter to drop sensitivity down by 4 to 5dB or so, plus a second order crossover at around 4kHz could work well.
An L pad with a 1.5 ohm resistor in series (R1) and a 7 ohm resistor parallel (R2) will give you around 4dB attenuation on the Dayton tweeter, which will blend better. You could try a single 6 ohm resistor (or use the 7 ohm) in series, which will also give you around 4dB attenuation, but L pads stabilise impedance so are generally preferred. You only need 10w ratings, the high precision ones such as these from Parts Express might be easier to fit in the A pillar than the clunky white ones. Normally you would use these after the filter (cap, or cap and coil if you go 2nd order):
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...1.5?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...6-7?quantity=1
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
But first try going the other direction with the tweeter - you say you need a cut between 2-3kHz, sounds like you might be using a 10uF cap on the Dayton. The Dayton will then be only 6dB down at 2kHz, and will be summing with the Peerless - which means the frequencies in the 2kHz-4kHz can be up to 6dB higher if their phases are aligning. Try an 8uF cap or even a 6.8uF. The advantage of using something like a 6.8uF on the Dayton is that you will be -6db down at 3kHz, and that will blend much better with the Peerless. You won't notice, or be offended by, the gentle rise of the Dayton to 6kHz and then sitting up at a 90dB level thereafter. And you could also try reversing the polarity of the tweeter, because you might get a better phase response in that 2-3kHz band.
The Peerless tweeter, assuming we are talking about the same one, goes in the wrong direction - they are even more efficient than the Dayton at 96dB/w. Not sure you are going to be happy with them. You would need a 10db attenuation from an L pad for them to match the Peerless mid.
It is a journey!
I can’t believe I misread the sensitivity on the peerless tweets so much lol. I was thinking they were 90. Oh well, they will be getting returned.
I know I’ve swapped the polarity and the cap a few times to the point of not knowing what’s currently in the car lol. But makes sense raising the crossover a bunch for blending, I want to say old me has already done that and it has a 6.8uf on it already, but will see when I pull the a pillars on the old car. Sounds like an L-pad will be next thing to try. You think do the same on the center tweeter (cap and l pad)? Also any reason to try to mess with a 2nd order crossover? Or just messing with phase too much
I also made an order with resonix, excited to do a better job sound deadening with this car.
My front doors are actually Dayton Audio DSA175-8 6-1/2" since everything was out of stock at the time. Actually really love them! Have a.s.s grills.
Last edited by Crazydrummer; 06-20-2024 at 12:39 AM.
06-11-2024, 08:54 PM
#12
Man reading through the rest of this a few times makes me want to try the scan speak mids and sb combo. I’m suprised they fit in the door, but love the mounts. I too wonder if they will fit the dash
06-12-2024, 04:32 AM
#13
AudiWorld Member
You might need to damp down the Hertz to avoid it jumping out at you because of the big difference in efficiency. Easily done. Our ears are extremely sensitive to sounds between between 2000 and 4000Hz (how we know where the sabre tooth tiger is coming from), so you want to avoid overlap if you can. That isn't easy using first order filters, and you usually need a bit of trial and error to find the sweet spot. But because the Hertz is so much more efficient, you need over an octave and a half just to have them matching. But that assumes perfect phase, and it won't be perfect, it is chaotic.
So a good idea to buy the 8uF capacitor. Be easier to solder and then tape up the 8uF cap in line than trying to secure the Hertz's plastic box in the A pillar so it doesn't rattle around. If you still find it bright with the 8uF, try the 5.7uF cap in the 2nd order LP filter you bought. IIRC Bobby found that too dull, but that was with Daytons. That will be 6dB down at 3500Hz, which could be a nice transition to the Peerless. Hard to know unless you try, the online calculators always assume perfect phase response, and that doesn't exist in a car.
So a good idea to buy the 8uF capacitor. Be easier to solder and then tape up the 8uF cap in line than trying to secure the Hertz's plastic box in the A pillar so it doesn't rattle around. If you still find it bright with the 8uF, try the 5.7uF cap in the 2nd order LP filter you bought. IIRC Bobby found that too dull, but that was with Daytons. That will be 6dB down at 3500Hz, which could be a nice transition to the Peerless. Hard to know unless you try, the online calculators always assume perfect phase response, and that doesn't exist in a car.
I plan to swap out the cheap Hertz with the more expensive and larger Hertz mille mp 25.3 as it measures nearly identical in diameter as the OEM tweeter. This will drop tweeter sensitivity from 94 to 91 and could help the tinny brightness.
My only small complaint is how quiet the silver flute woofer seemed. I wish I can adjust the mid range but obviously cant in the MMI.
Last edited by Volvo_Expert; 06-12-2024 at 04:41 AM.
06-13-2024, 06:10 PM
#14
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
^^
Worth exploring the DT24.3, as you can always use them elsewhere. You could always use an L pad via a 2 ohm resistor in parallel, and a 4 ohm resistor in series to cut output by around 6db, if you have room. Or just a single 4 ohm resistor in series will do the same between the crossover point to about 8kHz, then the output will tend to ramp back up as the impedance rises. With an L pad, impedance is held flat, so you don't get the rise at higher frequencies. Or just cut out a small circle of fabric tape and stick that over the centre of the tweeter grill, so the sound is coming from the outer third of the dome, and blocked in the centre - will cut output, but can affect dispersion (no big deal in a car).
The Hertz MP 25.3 looks really good. I had thought it would be too big to fit. A 28mm voice coil and FS below 1kHz - that should sound very nice. The supplied 2nd order crossover at 3.5kHz with a -2dB setting should work well for blending with the crossover you bought if you feel the need to use that. I like it!
The SB Acoustics used by jl226ca per post #2 could also be good in terms of matching the Peerless in tonality terms with their Scandinavian sounds signatures (natural, not aggressive etc). People that like the sound of the Peerless mids are going to prefer Scandinavian design (although half of them now made in China and / or Chinese owned) soft domed tweeters, I suspect. TLHP in France sell that SB Acoustics and it is around €33 each - no "car audio" mark-up. The smaller SB Acoustics he used in the rear doors are also good contenders.
I don't know anything about the Silver Flutes, other than Bobby listing them for that position. I do recall a few people fitting them per either Bobby's or Bruce's huge threads, which can be hard to search. They seem very good value, and the specs look good. Reading the reviews on Mdisound suggests they are typically uses as a mid/bass, and they have a nice, warm midrange. But you don't get any benefit of that in the B&O with a 200-250Hz low pass. That position really needs a hard hitting bass driver, and maybe the Silver Flutes are a bit mid range focussed to do that, despite their frequency plots? You could check whether there is any phase cancellation happening. Turn the sub level to minimum and then gradually bring it up and see if the bass from the Flutes gets tighter or softer when doing this.
Assume you have done the Basser/sub yet? When you do, that will impact on how the Flutes sound, positively. The B&O sub won't be helping at all.
To crudely get more mids, turn down bass and treble setting by 3 or 4 clicks and add gain. But this is my issue with the Peerless mids - beautiful sound, but such low efficiency they can be easily overwhelmed above and below. Needs careful matching.
Worth exploring the DT24.3, as you can always use them elsewhere. You could always use an L pad via a 2 ohm resistor in parallel, and a 4 ohm resistor in series to cut output by around 6db, if you have room. Or just a single 4 ohm resistor in series will do the same between the crossover point to about 8kHz, then the output will tend to ramp back up as the impedance rises. With an L pad, impedance is held flat, so you don't get the rise at higher frequencies. Or just cut out a small circle of fabric tape and stick that over the centre of the tweeter grill, so the sound is coming from the outer third of the dome, and blocked in the centre - will cut output, but can affect dispersion (no big deal in a car).
- L pad calculator (also gives single R value): https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
- By example, 2 ohm resistor cheap but a bit clunky: https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...4-2?quantity=1
- Twice the price, but less clunky and more accurate: https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...6-2?quantity=1
- 4 ohm example: https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...3.7?quantity=1
The Hertz MP 25.3 looks really good. I had thought it would be too big to fit. A 28mm voice coil and FS below 1kHz - that should sound very nice. The supplied 2nd order crossover at 3.5kHz with a -2dB setting should work well for blending with the crossover you bought if you feel the need to use that. I like it!
The SB Acoustics used by jl226ca per post #2 could also be good in terms of matching the Peerless in tonality terms with their Scandinavian sounds signatures (natural, not aggressive etc). People that like the sound of the Peerless mids are going to prefer Scandinavian design (although half of them now made in China and / or Chinese owned) soft domed tweeters, I suspect. TLHP in France sell that SB Acoustics and it is around €33 each - no "car audio" mark-up. The smaller SB Acoustics he used in the rear doors are also good contenders.
I don't know anything about the Silver Flutes, other than Bobby listing them for that position. I do recall a few people fitting them per either Bobby's or Bruce's huge threads, which can be hard to search. They seem very good value, and the specs look good. Reading the reviews on Mdisound suggests they are typically uses as a mid/bass, and they have a nice, warm midrange. But you don't get any benefit of that in the B&O with a 200-250Hz low pass. That position really needs a hard hitting bass driver, and maybe the Silver Flutes are a bit mid range focussed to do that, despite their frequency plots? You could check whether there is any phase cancellation happening. Turn the sub level to minimum and then gradually bring it up and see if the bass from the Flutes gets tighter or softer when doing this.
Assume you have done the Basser/sub yet? When you do, that will impact on how the Flutes sound, positively. The B&O sub won't be helping at all.
To crudely get more mids, turn down bass and treble setting by 3 or 4 clicks and add gain. But this is my issue with the Peerless mids - beautiful sound, but such low efficiency they can be easily overwhelmed above and below. Needs careful matching.
06-14-2024, 03:35 AM
#15
AudiWorld Member
The Hertz MP 25.3 looks really good. I had thought it would be too big to fit. A 28mm voice coil and FS below 1kHz - that should sound very nice. The supplied 2nd order crossover at 3.5kHz with a -2dB setting should work well for blending with the crossover you bought if you feel the need to use that. I like it!
The basser with the hertz sub is completed and OVERWHELMING in bass. I turned the kick gain all the way down and maybe added 10%. It still hits extremely deep and loud when playing with the bass **** up front.
EDIT.... just ordered the Dayton Audio ND25FA and ND25FN from a Dutch website. I ordered five total so I can replace all tweeters with the same. Will report back once installed.
Last edited by Volvo_Expert; 06-14-2024 at 05:26 AM.
06-16-2024, 08:03 PM
#16
Just an update to my s#1tshow. Swapped all the stock stuff back into my a5 and delivered it to new owner. Man I forgot how much the stock speakers suck!
Anyways turns out I’ve got a 4.7uf caps on the Dayton nd25 tweets up front! with no cap on the center tweeter. I cut a piece of cloth tape and put on the center of each tweeter grill up front to see if it helps. I also added some much nicer sealing foam between the mids and the door from resonix to hopefully (doubtful) get a little more sound out through the grill.
if that still doesn’t help, I’ll prob try adding a cap onto center tweet just to see and maybe try adding a 2nd order like 5k crossover. Or just ordering the scan speaks to try and maybe some different tweeters.
Anyways turns out I’ve got a 4.7uf caps on the Dayton nd25 tweets up front! with no cap on the center tweeter. I cut a piece of cloth tape and put on the center of each tweeter grill up front to see if it helps. I also added some much nicer sealing foam between the mids and the door from resonix to hopefully (doubtful) get a little more sound out through the grill.
if that still doesn’t help, I’ll prob try adding a cap onto center tweet just to see and maybe try adding a 2nd order like 5k crossover. Or just ordering the scan speaks to try and maybe some different tweeters.
Last edited by Crazydrummer; 06-20-2024 at 12:41 AM.
06-16-2024, 08:54 PM
#17
AudiWorld Member
My peerless mids have a 1/2" gap between them and the door panel. I ordered 4" and 5.25" foam speaker rings to install on the door panel and then reinstall the peerless in hopes to seal it. If this fails I will just cut strips of dynamat and seat the peerless to the door panel that way.
06-17-2024, 05:01 AM
#18
My peerless mids have a 1/2" gap between them and the door panel. I ordered 4" and 5.25" foam speaker rings to install on the door panel and then reinstall the peerless in hopes to seal it. If this fails I will just cut strips of dynamat and seat the peerless to the door panel that way.
I used some of these I had left over cut to fit. You decide on a tweeter setup to run? I was thinking about it more last night and from a cost/easy of install standpoint, sticking with nd25’s with L-pads might be the first thing I try. I’m going to order some of the oem style tweeter connectors and just solder up some plug and play harnesses/L-pads for the lower a-pillars. Happy to make a few extra while I’m at it if anyone else wants any.
oem female connector —> cap/resistors —> oem male connector
in fact I’d like to just get new oem tweeter housings so play around with some mounting if anyone has an extra set sitting around
06-17-2024, 05:09 AM
#19
AudiWorld Member
https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/pr...coupling-pair/
I used some of these I had left over cut to fit. You decide on a tweeter setup to run? I was thinking about it more last night and from a cost/easy of install standpoint, sticking with nd25’s with L-pads might be the first thing I try. I’m going to order some of the oem style tweeter connectors and just solder up some plug and play harnesses/L-pads for the lower a-pillars. Happy to make a few extra while I’m at it if anyone else wants any.
oem female connector —> cap/resistors —> oem male connector
in fact I’d like to just get new oem tweeter housings so play around with some mounting if anyone has an extra set sitting around
I used some of these I had left over cut to fit. You decide on a tweeter setup to run? I was thinking about it more last night and from a cost/easy of install standpoint, sticking with nd25’s with L-pads might be the first thing I try. I’m going to order some of the oem style tweeter connectors and just solder up some plug and play harnesses/L-pads for the lower a-pillars. Happy to make a few extra while I’m at it if anyone else wants any.
oem female connector —> cap/resistors —> oem male connector
in fact I’d like to just get new oem tweeter housings so play around with some mounting if anyone has an extra set sitting around
My five ND25's just arrived from the Netherlands today. I am now waiting on my 8uF and 10uF capacitors to arrive at my APO before I start installing. I hope these ND25's will be nicer to my ears than the cheap hertz.
06-17-2024, 05:58 AM
#20
That is some nice foam sealers but I will wait until my rings arrive from the chicoms.I know a speaker not being sealed can cause the front and back waves to collide and eliminate a hollow sound from speakers. Hopefully this will warm up my peerless and get them out to my ears better.
My five ND25's just arrived from the Netherlands today. I am now waiting on my 8uF and 10uF capacitors to arrive at my APO before I start installing. I hope these ND25's will be nicer to my ears than the cheap hertz.
My five ND25's just arrived from the Netherlands today. I am now waiting on my 8uF and 10uF capacitors to arrive at my APO before I start installing. I hope these ND25's will be nicer to my ears than the cheap hertz.
Sealing the peerless better and putting just a tiny 1/2” by 1/2” of oem wire wrap cloth tap over the front 3 tweeter grills made a HUGE difference. I finally feel like nd25’s are blending with the peerless properly. I went from having to be 2-3 down on the MMI treble to mid way exactly or 1-2 up. The 2-4k range I was complaining about is wayyyy smoother, and I can actually adjust the MMI treble to my liking for brightness. 10/10 for a couple expensive pieces of foam and tape.
4.7uf cap on the a-pillar tweets should put me -6db right around where the peerless mechanically fall off, plus if I got a few -db from the tape that kinda does the same thing as an L-pad. I really think the tape helped the dispersion in a good way too. Made it smoother/took out some of the harshness. I’m a HAPPY camper now and going to leave the fronts alone. If anything I might change the rear Dayton woofers I have since they kinda sound meh imo and I’d like a touch more rear fill (and screw taking apart the c-pillar)
I’m about to wire my amp/sub in since I’m already basically ignoring work this morning to focus on car audio lol.
EDIT: upon further testing may start raising the cap and see if can get it fine tuned
Last edited by Crazydrummer; 06-17-2024 at 08:54 AM.