For all you folks worried about "tip lag"...
10-15-2003, 05:19 AM
#1
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For all you folks worried about "tip lag"...
...(or whatever you call it), be aware that it's not just an allroad problem. The A6 crowd worries too, as seen <a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/304185.phtml"> here </a>. HPH
10-15-2003, 08:21 AM
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okay for the millionth time that thread is not actually about "TIP" lag it's...
BTL syndrome.... brake-throttle-lag
it has nothing to do with the delay between gear shifts on tiptronic cars... I wish this ****ty forum software had a sticky function it would sure help in getting consistant answers to people.
I don't actually care if we call it tip lag or "agdslkfhajshf", only that we all get on the same page with what name=what symptom.
it has nothing to do with the delay between gear shifts on tiptronic cars... I wish this ****ty forum software had a sticky function it would sure help in getting consistant answers to people.
I don't actually care if we call it tip lag or "agdslkfhajshf", only that we all get on the same page with what name=what symptom.
10-15-2003, 09:58 AM
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I test drove that car before getting the allroad.
It had a major impact in our decision, as we saw no discernible lag, Tip or brake-gas. I was leery of the Tip, because of rants I saw here.
We reasoned that the 2.7T A6 Quattro with Tip probably had the same powertrain setup as the allroad, and this allayed our fears. We also reasoned that the allroad was just the avant version of this car with the addition of the air suspension.
Unfortunately, we found the behavior was not shared, after we go the allroad. Not to say that we are disappointed with it, just that the brake-gas lag is so darn frustrating.
I have more problems with this than my wife does. In fact there is one particular intersection and hill combination that we hit daily, that without fail, causes this problem to rear it's ugly head. No power, no power, no power, BAM! Turbos whining as redline approaches fast and everyone/everything is thrown into the back of the seat.
Every time this happens, I am threatened with not being able to drive her baby anymore.
It reminds me of when I first used a 3-D input device on a CAD workstation that was a few years past prime. You had to become a Jedi Knight moving the magellan just right without seeing any corresponding motion on the screen, just knowing where it was supposed to go. A second later it would appear where it was supposed to be. If you waited for any feedback, the orientation of the model was overshot, and your corrections would most likely loose the model from view. Way too much mental effort to overcome the effects of an unnecessary delay.
In the allroad, you keep compensating, because there isn't the appropriate feedback, and then all hell breaks loose.
-- Len
We reasoned that the 2.7T A6 Quattro with Tip probably had the same powertrain setup as the allroad, and this allayed our fears. We also reasoned that the allroad was just the avant version of this car with the addition of the air suspension.
Unfortunately, we found the behavior was not shared, after we go the allroad. Not to say that we are disappointed with it, just that the brake-gas lag is so darn frustrating.
I have more problems with this than my wife does. In fact there is one particular intersection and hill combination that we hit daily, that without fail, causes this problem to rear it's ugly head. No power, no power, no power, BAM! Turbos whining as redline approaches fast and everyone/everything is thrown into the back of the seat.
Every time this happens, I am threatened with not being able to drive her baby anymore.
It reminds me of when I first used a 3-D input device on a CAD workstation that was a few years past prime. You had to become a Jedi Knight moving the magellan just right without seeing any corresponding motion on the screen, just knowing where it was supposed to go. A second later it would appear where it was supposed to be. If you waited for any feedback, the orientation of the model was overshot, and your corrections would most likely loose the model from view. Way too much mental effort to overcome the effects of an unnecessary delay.
In the allroad, you keep compensating, because there isn't the appropriate feedback, and then all hell breaks loose.
-- Len
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10-15-2003, 11:06 AM
#8
The allroad is NOT "just" an A6 avant with an air suspension. . .didn't the dealer splain it?
. . .and the salesrep at my dealer makes absolutely certain his prospects understand the lag with the auto version and he suggests the 6spd version instead. Of course, he confesses that many people can't even fathom why you would buy a $40 to $50K car with a stick shift.
I heard a RUMOR that there will be a 2005 allroad -- if this is true I imagine it would be like the 2002 S4, a carryover of the prior year with enough content change and badge redesign to allow them to put the window sticker on it.
If this is true, put my order in now for an 05 6sp quattro.
It seems the cries about the tip versions are either getting more frequent or more shrill.
Last weekend a fellow Audiworld poster from New York visited his in-laws here in Cincinnati. We met so that he could drive my PSK swaybar, 18" wheel/tired, 402 modded 6spd. He has an 03 with the tip.
He drove mine and said he felt that it wasn't even the same car.
The point? - if you are not yet an allroad owner, please test drive both versions (stick and auto).
Then make your choice. The tip drivers seem to be so displeased its a wonder that the 6spds don't outsell the tips.
Remember the 4000's? My friend who used to own the dealership said that when the cars were called 4000's not A4's that they were 90% stick and 10% auto and the 5000's (now A6's) were 75% stick and 25% autos -- what the hell happened? My first Audi with an auto was a 1997 A8 -- the transmission was a 5spd auto non-tip. It had a mind of its own. Subequent Audi's with tips were improved but they still seem to do what they want to do which is apparently to get into 5th gear as soon as possible and stay in as high a gear as is possible until or unless forced to downshift by the sheer force of the driver's right foot.
I heard a RUMOR that there will be a 2005 allroad -- if this is true I imagine it would be like the 2002 S4, a carryover of the prior year with enough content change and badge redesign to allow them to put the window sticker on it.
If this is true, put my order in now for an 05 6sp quattro.
It seems the cries about the tip versions are either getting more frequent or more shrill.
Last weekend a fellow Audiworld poster from New York visited his in-laws here in Cincinnati. We met so that he could drive my PSK swaybar, 18" wheel/tired, 402 modded 6spd. He has an 03 with the tip.
He drove mine and said he felt that it wasn't even the same car.
The point? - if you are not yet an allroad owner, please test drive both versions (stick and auto).
Then make your choice. The tip drivers seem to be so displeased its a wonder that the 6spds don't outsell the tips.
Remember the 4000's? My friend who used to own the dealership said that when the cars were called 4000's not A4's that they were 90% stick and 10% auto and the 5000's (now A6's) were 75% stick and 25% autos -- what the hell happened? My first Audi with an auto was a 1997 A8 -- the transmission was a 5spd auto non-tip. It had a mind of its own. Subequent Audi's with tips were improved but they still seem to do what they want to do which is apparently to get into 5th gear as soon as possible and stay in as high a gear as is possible until or unless forced to downshift by the sheer force of the driver's right foot.
10-15-2003, 11:38 AM
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Disagree.
The original post in the A6 forum makes no mention of braking.
BTL is easy to demonstrate: put your foot into the brake while still pressing on the throttle, shortly you'll notice a major lack of power. Release brakes but note there is a lag before power returns. The system won't allow you to do both.
Tip-lag is the engineered-in latency most noticeable when taking off in first -brakes off- unless in Tip Mode there's a significant delay before the engine/trans decides it's time to GO! It is also noteciable in go-slow down-go situations (without touching the brakes) just as the original poster described.
Is the horse dead yet? ;-)
BTL is easy to demonstrate: put your foot into the brake while still pressing on the throttle, shortly you'll notice a major lack of power. Release brakes but note there is a lag before power returns. The system won't allow you to do both.
Tip-lag is the engineered-in latency most noticeable when taking off in first -brakes off- unless in Tip Mode there's a significant delay before the engine/trans decides it's time to GO! It is also noteciable in go-slow down-go situations (without touching the brakes) just as the original poster described.
Is the horse dead yet? ;-)
10-15-2003, 12:20 PM
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May not exist in ALL ar. My 01 ar has no lag...
If anything, I consider it a tad TOO responsive. I had to acclimatize to be VERY gentle on the gas paddle, using a very soft touch on the throttle to prevent abrupt jerkyness. Its an 01 Oct build.