Finally took a road trip. Verdict: My 3.0T Autospeed 'Beast' is HORRIBLE.
12-08-2008, 10:08 AM
#111
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!!
"maybe you should just be CALLING HIM.... instead of calling him out..."
What, are you unclear still?
Why should "I" call him as per your post above...
This clear on you yet or are you just not getting it?
Best.
Ram<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/allroad/msgs/251428.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/allroad/msgs/251428.phtml</a</li></ul>
What, are you unclear still?
Why should "I" call him as per your post above...
This clear on you yet or are you just not getting it?
Best.
Ram<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/allroad/msgs/251428.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/allroad/msgs/251428.phtml</a</li></ul>
12-08-2008, 10:43 AM
#114
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Sarge please email me your current contact info... My response inside...
Sarge I do not have ANY contact information for you, apparently you moved and our information is not current. Please email me (mark@autospeed.us) your contact information and I will call you immediately as it is received.
It is with great disappointment that we are in this position regarding Sarge and his vehicle. Since our company reputation is being questioned and tarnished at this point regarding this build I feel the need to present the broader scope of this situation.
We don't lose sight of the fact that Sarge is our customer and deserves respect. We have worked closely through Sarge's attorney to ensure all items have been addressed. Our communications lines have remained open and continue to be so. Since delivery of said vehicle the only correspondence I have received was from his attorney to inform me it arrived in his work parking lot with flat tires and difficult to get in and out of gear. It is extremely concerning that the vehicle did not arrive in the same condition as it left AutoSpeed.
We do not wish to ignore this situation and only wish to have it resolved in a way that is acceptable to both parties. I recognize the frustration on Sarge's behalf and will not downplay that, However there are a few points that I would like to clarify:
The vehicle left our facility running perfectly and free of any mechanical defects. I personally drove the vehicle for a week to and from work approx. 350 miles and at the end checked the oil level and it was not any lower. It went through normal drive cycles such as cold start, warmup and various operating conditions all performing as expected. It was asked <i>"how could a vehicle be tuned that is consuming so much oil?"</i> and the answer is it can't. I pulled up the one of the last dyno pulls from 6/19 illustrating the power output on 87 Octane fuel. The chart has no smoothing and shows the powerband is linear throughout.
<a href="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/87.pdf">See Dyno Chart</a>
The following pictures illustrate that the vehicle was detailed prior to being loaded up by the transport company and was in excellent condition:
<img src="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/sideL.JPG">
<img src="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/SideR.JPG">
<img src="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/Engine.JPG">
<b>ABOUT THE PROJECT</b>
To trivialize this project as a $50k "tuning job" is absurd. Sarge's vehicle was and still is as far as we can tell the only 3.0L conversion running a ball bearing GT turbo system. Although 3.0L conversions are becoming more common place in the B5 S4 community today, this project 2 years ago was the among the first to employ the use of 3.0L displacement.
The vehicle arrived in stock form to be transformed into what would be on of the most powerful Allroads in the world.
The project scope entailed:
* GT28RS Turbo Package consisting of Turbos, Manifolds, DP's, WG's and supporting items gaskets, oil/water lines...etc.
* NEW 3.0L Crank
* Custom Forged Pistons
* Forged Rods
* 2.8L Head Swap
* Ferrea Upgraded Valvetrain
* Lightweight Crank Pulley
* Twin Plate Cltuch and Flywheel
* RS4 Intake, TBody, Fuel Rail
* ASP Custom Charge Pipes
* ASP FMIC
* Power steering cooler and oil cooler
* Electric Fan Kit
* Bosch 044 Pump
* Inline Supplemental Fuel Pump
* Timing Belt Kit
* NEW assorted Bearing and Seals as part of the new bottom end
* CRYO and REM coating of entire gearbox
* Stasis Center Diff
* Quaife Rear LSD
* Catback Exhaust
* Trans Stabilizer Bar
* Snub Mount
* Billet Engine and Trans Mounts
* Thermal Intake Spacers
* HD Tie Rods
* CV Boot Replacements
* MTM Fender Flares
* Body Work and Painting of Flares
* STOPTECH 6 Piston 355 BBK
* A87 Rear Brake Upgrade
* Install of RS6 PowerSteering Rack
* HSport Sway Bars
* Custom Wheel Spacers
* Steering Alignment
* Zeitronix AFR Display with Sensors
Main Services Included:
* Machining of Block (Bore and Hone)
* Intake Manifold Port and Polish and Fabrication of Increased Plenum
* Installation / Tuning of Engine and above listed items
The billed labor for the porting, polishing, 3angle valve seats in head work was $1500
Labor in engine build/install/tuning was 60 hours @ $75 = $4500.00
The remaining costs were all parts/material/product expenses.
The result? We had dynos to show the vehicle was making phenomenal amounts of torque and power repeatedly.
<b>INITIAL VEHICLE PICKUP</b>
As Sarge pointed out upon 1st attempt to pickup said vehicle and after taking possession of vehicle to drive it back to the west coast, issues surfaced. We immediately flew an ASP employee down to Sarge to pickup the vehicle.
Sarge and I compiled a "punchlist" of items that were of concern. The most concerning was oil consumption/blowby. There were other items such as brake fade and ESP issues, but I won't get into that as they are of minor relevance to this thread.
Also during the test drive with Sarge a characteristic was identified as "surging" when the vehicle is driven in high gear (5th or 6th), at 80mph, and at low rpms (2,000) and then transitioning to full throttle. This condition was caused by too low of rpms to effectively "spool" the turbo quick enough while still resulting in high measured load readings, triggering "over fueling" at WOT. The problem was not present if the driver downshifted to a lower gear and went WOT. So in turn it was a combination of lag mixed with excess fuel which made the car buck.
We immediately began to run through the standard practice of care to determine what is going on. Compression and Leakdown tests were performed and returned favorable results. A full engine tear down soon followed. Upon close inspection it was revealed that the factory valve guides and stem seals had failed causing the oil loss presumably from high crankcase pressure buildup of running 30psi sustained.
Throughout this process we exercised strict protocol to inspect all items closely while documenting the clearances in reports, we replaced all oil system related components such as main/rod bearings, oil pump, check valves, thermostatic plate, orings, oil pressure transducer...etc. Lastly we hand selected valve guides that were extremely close in terms of tolerances to ensure we had a uniform seal and no "sloppy" guides. Lastly we used branded OEM seals to rule out the possibility of an aftermarket failure.
During this time Sarge had hired an attorney and all communication had been between his counsel and myself. I called Sarge numerous times and left messages on what I presume is his cell phone and did not receive any return calls. I could only assume he didn't want to speak to me and wanted me to deal with his counsel.
The engine was reinstalled, and car retuned for a lower output, one that would still exhibit huge performance gains over stock but would minimize the risk of engine part failures.
Consequently we tuned the car on the lowest octane we could obtain which was 87. We felt this would be the "worst case" performance scenario and running higher octane would only improve power delivery.
We checked through each punch list item diligently to ensure it was properly handled.
In regards to the tuning, it is of worthy mention is that all B5 S4's and some A6/Allroad models utilize an engine management system that is labeled ME7.1, Whereas Sarge's model uses ME7.1.1 with turbo control.
This 7.1.1 system is a bit more refined than 7.1 and requires further calibration with additional lookup tables and modifying code routines and procedure calls to get the software to have the ability to high speed datalog and switch performance profiles. All of that took considerable effort and time to complete; I didn't document my time but suffice to say it would be hundreds of hours.
Months went by of going back and forth with legal and ultimately we agreed to have the project delivered. I can have multiple witnesses attest to going for a test drive where I drove the vehicle casually and also WOT on the highway. For all intents and purposes I deemed this vehicle ready for delivery and in excellent order. I was very adamant with Sarge's attorney that "once he drives the car all past issues will be past us". The car was not burning any excess oil and certainly didn't need to be topped off every XX miles.
The vehicle originally was to be returned to San Diego CA (sea level), and now is at high elevation (6000'+). Anyone that has undergone stage3 or higher modifications and in higher elevations may comment that it is often required to recalibrate the ecu file. The elevation may be having adverse impact on the performance, it would need to be data logged to determined the state of tune.
With all that said, I am leaving out many details for sake of simplicity. The point of this response is not to argue but rather point out we exercised what we believe to be the utmost responsible way of delivering this project. To date we have incurred over $17k in costs above the original invoice and we have not ever asked for any additional compensation from Sarge. We covered such things as brake pads, wheel purchases and other items that most other shops would not.
Obviously the vehicle is now exhibiting serious issues; we are not questioning Sarge's commentary and these issues concern me. I am confident the elevation/tuning portion can be addressed in situ; the oil consumption is obviously the heart of the matter and needs discovery.
It goes without saying that no company needs bad publicity and angry customers. It would be foolish of ASP to insist the vehicle was in perfect order and deliver it otherwise. We are prepared and always have been to support Sarge and this project; however it seems we need to reopen the lines of communications.
In closing we do regret that this situation has escalated to this public level when we believed that we had reached an amicable end to this build. I do want to publicly thank all of our supporters for posting your positive experiences and want others to know that this incident is far from ASP trying to ignore or negate our responsibility to our customer. In the end I'm sure we can resolve this so all parties are satisfied.
Sarge, I am respectfully asking you to email me your current contact info.
Sincerely
Mark Slazak
It is with great disappointment that we are in this position regarding Sarge and his vehicle. Since our company reputation is being questioned and tarnished at this point regarding this build I feel the need to present the broader scope of this situation.
We don't lose sight of the fact that Sarge is our customer and deserves respect. We have worked closely through Sarge's attorney to ensure all items have been addressed. Our communications lines have remained open and continue to be so. Since delivery of said vehicle the only correspondence I have received was from his attorney to inform me it arrived in his work parking lot with flat tires and difficult to get in and out of gear. It is extremely concerning that the vehicle did not arrive in the same condition as it left AutoSpeed.
We do not wish to ignore this situation and only wish to have it resolved in a way that is acceptable to both parties. I recognize the frustration on Sarge's behalf and will not downplay that, However there are a few points that I would like to clarify:
The vehicle left our facility running perfectly and free of any mechanical defects. I personally drove the vehicle for a week to and from work approx. 350 miles and at the end checked the oil level and it was not any lower. It went through normal drive cycles such as cold start, warmup and various operating conditions all performing as expected. It was asked <i>"how could a vehicle be tuned that is consuming so much oil?"</i> and the answer is it can't. I pulled up the one of the last dyno pulls from 6/19 illustrating the power output on 87 Octane fuel. The chart has no smoothing and shows the powerband is linear throughout.
<a href="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/87.pdf">See Dyno Chart</a>
The following pictures illustrate that the vehicle was detailed prior to being loaded up by the transport company and was in excellent condition:
<img src="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/sideL.JPG">
<img src="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/SideR.JPG">
<img src="http://www.autospeed.us/pics/Engine.JPG">
<b>ABOUT THE PROJECT</b>
To trivialize this project as a $50k "tuning job" is absurd. Sarge's vehicle was and still is as far as we can tell the only 3.0L conversion running a ball bearing GT turbo system. Although 3.0L conversions are becoming more common place in the B5 S4 community today, this project 2 years ago was the among the first to employ the use of 3.0L displacement.
The vehicle arrived in stock form to be transformed into what would be on of the most powerful Allroads in the world.
The project scope entailed:
* GT28RS Turbo Package consisting of Turbos, Manifolds, DP's, WG's and supporting items gaskets, oil/water lines...etc.
* NEW 3.0L Crank
* Custom Forged Pistons
* Forged Rods
* 2.8L Head Swap
* Ferrea Upgraded Valvetrain
* Lightweight Crank Pulley
* Twin Plate Cltuch and Flywheel
* RS4 Intake, TBody, Fuel Rail
* ASP Custom Charge Pipes
* ASP FMIC
* Power steering cooler and oil cooler
* Electric Fan Kit
* Bosch 044 Pump
* Inline Supplemental Fuel Pump
* Timing Belt Kit
* NEW assorted Bearing and Seals as part of the new bottom end
* CRYO and REM coating of entire gearbox
* Stasis Center Diff
* Quaife Rear LSD
* Catback Exhaust
* Trans Stabilizer Bar
* Snub Mount
* Billet Engine and Trans Mounts
* Thermal Intake Spacers
* HD Tie Rods
* CV Boot Replacements
* MTM Fender Flares
* Body Work and Painting of Flares
* STOPTECH 6 Piston 355 BBK
* A87 Rear Brake Upgrade
* Install of RS6 PowerSteering Rack
* HSport Sway Bars
* Custom Wheel Spacers
* Steering Alignment
* Zeitronix AFR Display with Sensors
Main Services Included:
* Machining of Block (Bore and Hone)
* Intake Manifold Port and Polish and Fabrication of Increased Plenum
* Installation / Tuning of Engine and above listed items
The billed labor for the porting, polishing, 3angle valve seats in head work was $1500
Labor in engine build/install/tuning was 60 hours @ $75 = $4500.00
The remaining costs were all parts/material/product expenses.
The result? We had dynos to show the vehicle was making phenomenal amounts of torque and power repeatedly.
<b>INITIAL VEHICLE PICKUP</b>
As Sarge pointed out upon 1st attempt to pickup said vehicle and after taking possession of vehicle to drive it back to the west coast, issues surfaced. We immediately flew an ASP employee down to Sarge to pickup the vehicle.
Sarge and I compiled a "punchlist" of items that were of concern. The most concerning was oil consumption/blowby. There were other items such as brake fade and ESP issues, but I won't get into that as they are of minor relevance to this thread.
Also during the test drive with Sarge a characteristic was identified as "surging" when the vehicle is driven in high gear (5th or 6th), at 80mph, and at low rpms (2,000) and then transitioning to full throttle. This condition was caused by too low of rpms to effectively "spool" the turbo quick enough while still resulting in high measured load readings, triggering "over fueling" at WOT. The problem was not present if the driver downshifted to a lower gear and went WOT. So in turn it was a combination of lag mixed with excess fuel which made the car buck.
We immediately began to run through the standard practice of care to determine what is going on. Compression and Leakdown tests were performed and returned favorable results. A full engine tear down soon followed. Upon close inspection it was revealed that the factory valve guides and stem seals had failed causing the oil loss presumably from high crankcase pressure buildup of running 30psi sustained.
Throughout this process we exercised strict protocol to inspect all items closely while documenting the clearances in reports, we replaced all oil system related components such as main/rod bearings, oil pump, check valves, thermostatic plate, orings, oil pressure transducer...etc. Lastly we hand selected valve guides that were extremely close in terms of tolerances to ensure we had a uniform seal and no "sloppy" guides. Lastly we used branded OEM seals to rule out the possibility of an aftermarket failure.
During this time Sarge had hired an attorney and all communication had been between his counsel and myself. I called Sarge numerous times and left messages on what I presume is his cell phone and did not receive any return calls. I could only assume he didn't want to speak to me and wanted me to deal with his counsel.
The engine was reinstalled, and car retuned for a lower output, one that would still exhibit huge performance gains over stock but would minimize the risk of engine part failures.
Consequently we tuned the car on the lowest octane we could obtain which was 87. We felt this would be the "worst case" performance scenario and running higher octane would only improve power delivery.
We checked through each punch list item diligently to ensure it was properly handled.
In regards to the tuning, it is of worthy mention is that all B5 S4's and some A6/Allroad models utilize an engine management system that is labeled ME7.1, Whereas Sarge's model uses ME7.1.1 with turbo control.
This 7.1.1 system is a bit more refined than 7.1 and requires further calibration with additional lookup tables and modifying code routines and procedure calls to get the software to have the ability to high speed datalog and switch performance profiles. All of that took considerable effort and time to complete; I didn't document my time but suffice to say it would be hundreds of hours.
Months went by of going back and forth with legal and ultimately we agreed to have the project delivered. I can have multiple witnesses attest to going for a test drive where I drove the vehicle casually and also WOT on the highway. For all intents and purposes I deemed this vehicle ready for delivery and in excellent order. I was very adamant with Sarge's attorney that "once he drives the car all past issues will be past us". The car was not burning any excess oil and certainly didn't need to be topped off every XX miles.
The vehicle originally was to be returned to San Diego CA (sea level), and now is at high elevation (6000'+). Anyone that has undergone stage3 or higher modifications and in higher elevations may comment that it is often required to recalibrate the ecu file. The elevation may be having adverse impact on the performance, it would need to be data logged to determined the state of tune.
With all that said, I am leaving out many details for sake of simplicity. The point of this response is not to argue but rather point out we exercised what we believe to be the utmost responsible way of delivering this project. To date we have incurred over $17k in costs above the original invoice and we have not ever asked for any additional compensation from Sarge. We covered such things as brake pads, wheel purchases and other items that most other shops would not.
Obviously the vehicle is now exhibiting serious issues; we are not questioning Sarge's commentary and these issues concern me. I am confident the elevation/tuning portion can be addressed in situ; the oil consumption is obviously the heart of the matter and needs discovery.
It goes without saying that no company needs bad publicity and angry customers. It would be foolish of ASP to insist the vehicle was in perfect order and deliver it otherwise. We are prepared and always have been to support Sarge and this project; however it seems we need to reopen the lines of communications.
In closing we do regret that this situation has escalated to this public level when we believed that we had reached an amicable end to this build. I do want to publicly thank all of our supporters for posting your positive experiences and want others to know that this incident is far from ASP trying to ignore or negate our responsibility to our customer. In the end I'm sure we can resolve this so all parties are satisfied.
Sarge, I am respectfully asking you to email me your current contact info.
Sincerely
Mark Slazak
12-08-2008, 12:35 PM
#117
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Bore polishing or a bad hone can cause high oil consumption. As can a bad turbocharger...
a bad turbocharger can cause high blowby too by pressurizing the crankcase through the feedlines.
If you had a broken lower compression ring, you could be having high oil consumption without high blowby.
Rings installed upside-down could also cause high oil consumption and still seal combustion gasses.
Nothing you wrote is really wrong, but there are plenty of other potential causes in addition to what you and I both wrote.
If you had a broken lower compression ring, you could be having high oil consumption without high blowby.
Rings installed upside-down could also cause high oil consumption and still seal combustion gasses.
Nothing you wrote is really wrong, but there are plenty of other potential causes in addition to what you and I both wrote.
12-08-2008, 12:43 PM
#118
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Thanks Chris, it is very much appreciated as I highly value your knowledge in this subject matter...
can you do me a huge favor and shoot me your contact info? I would love to pick your brain about some stuff regarding piston/ring specs.