Lucas/Delphi Injectors as a potential reason for failing Air Quality testing
10-07-2006, 08:39 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
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Lucas/Delphi Injectors as a potential reason for failing Air Quality testing
Yesterday, Brian Powell on Audifans posted information about Lucas/Delphi injectors having poor spray patterns, especially under non-boost conditions, causing rich A/F readings and poor emissions readings. Coincidentally, one of our
Vancouver S-car club members took his car through "Air Care" yesterday. The car is RS2'd with KKK RS2 turbo and RS2 MAF but Lucas Delphi injectors. Software is by MRC.
The results from testing this car yesterday were as follows:
HC: 1.246 g/km (Failed, pass is <0.5)
CO: 24.908 g/km (Failed, pass is <9.32)
NOx: 1.192 g/km (Pass woohoo!, pass is <1.24)
We know MRC software runs a bit rich sometimes but you can't blame that. I am also running MRC software (also RS2'd but with Bosch RS2 green top
injectors). My 2005 results with this set-up were:
HC: 0.262 g/km (Pass, pass is <0.5)
CO: 6.48 g/km (Pass, pass is <9.32)
NOx: 0.23 g/km (Pass, pass is <1.24)
My previous stock Air Care results were:
HC: 0.15 g/km (Pass, pass is <0.5)
CO: 6.32 g/km (Pass, pass is <9.32)
NOx: 0.10 g/km (Pass, pass is <1.24)
So my RS2'd results (with MRC software) aren't really much different than my previous stock results.
Its not 100% conclusive but it sure points at the Lucas/Delphi (or any other injectors, including stock or RS2, that have a bad spray pattern
due to dirt, wear, etc.) as causing Air Care failures. Of course there could be other reasons, e.g. O2 sensor, bad plugs, dirty air filter,
dead kitties, etc.
Just thought somebody might want to know.
Dave F.
Vancouver S-car club members took his car through "Air Care" yesterday. The car is RS2'd with KKK RS2 turbo and RS2 MAF but Lucas Delphi injectors. Software is by MRC.
The results from testing this car yesterday were as follows:
HC: 1.246 g/km (Failed, pass is <0.5)
CO: 24.908 g/km (Failed, pass is <9.32)
NOx: 1.192 g/km (Pass woohoo!, pass is <1.24)
We know MRC software runs a bit rich sometimes but you can't blame that. I am also running MRC software (also RS2'd but with Bosch RS2 green top
injectors). My 2005 results with this set-up were:
HC: 0.262 g/km (Pass, pass is <0.5)
CO: 6.48 g/km (Pass, pass is <9.32)
NOx: 0.23 g/km (Pass, pass is <1.24)
My previous stock Air Care results were:
HC: 0.15 g/km (Pass, pass is <0.5)
CO: 6.32 g/km (Pass, pass is <9.32)
NOx: 0.10 g/km (Pass, pass is <1.24)
So my RS2'd results (with MRC software) aren't really much different than my previous stock results.
Its not 100% conclusive but it sure points at the Lucas/Delphi (or any other injectors, including stock or RS2, that have a bad spray pattern
due to dirt, wear, etc.) as causing Air Care failures. Of course there could be other reasons, e.g. O2 sensor, bad plugs, dirty air filter,
dead kitties, etc.
Just thought somebody might want to know.
Dave F.
10-07-2006, 08:48 AM
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Just to add to this discussion. Matt L. had the same problem with my car when he went Delphi-Lucas
He failed emissions when he had the Delphi Lucas injectors installed and later converted to 38lb/hr custom injectors.
10-07-2006, 09:35 AM
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I would like to see dyno results and see if you benefit with the D/L over the RS2 units...
Because I dont have Air-Care and could care less about emissions as long as my car isnt running lean under high boost conditions and maybe more fuel under WOT delivery over the RS2 units which would make me go the cheaper D/L route.
10-07-2006, 10:55 AM
#4
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
BTDT. Same car on the dyno made 268 whp with L/D injectors. I made 288 whp.
But I was juiced (toluene) against pinging. "Juice" factor was about 20 hp (Sean D.'s non-juiced Dahlback/MTM 298 whp vs Dave L's 317 whp juiced on Pingmeister(tm) S/W.
Oh yeah, the 268 whp car was Stromung equipped too.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/s4s6/msgs/110974.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/s4s6/msgs/110974.phtml</a</li></ul>
Oh yeah, the 268 whp car was Stromung equipped too.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/s4s6/msgs/110974.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/s4s6/msgs/110974.phtml</a</li></ul>
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10-07-2006, 05:00 PM
#8
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Forget the D/L (or L/D). Go for Javad's RS2 "replica" injectors. They are only...
about $265 for the 5 which isn't much more than the 37# L/Ds.
At least that is my opinion based on this new information.
At least that is my opinion based on this new information.
10-07-2006, 10:30 PM
#10
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Oh, geez, I hope not. Check the photos inside. I think they are different.
These white ones are Javad's. Note the barrel size. (Slim) According to Brian Powell from the S-car list (who started all this yesterday), "these are a new design from Bosch (in the last 5 years, according to Javad)".
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/15624/javadsrs2cloneinjectors.jpg">
Whereas the Racetronix Delphi/Lucas ones have a fat barrel.
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/15624/delphi_621037.jpg">
I have no idea whether Javad's are a pintel design (like the RS2 Bosch). The Lucas/Delphi injectors use "a small disc with six holes around its circumference. The disc rests on a short chimney that surrounds a metering hole. As the disc is raised off the chimney by magnetic force, fuel flows through the holes in the disc, over the walls of the chimney, and out the metering hole to form a full, finely atomized cone." (OR SO THEY SAY)
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/15624/javadsrs2cloneinjectors.jpg">
Whereas the Racetronix Delphi/Lucas ones have a fat barrel.
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/15624/delphi_621037.jpg">
I have no idea whether Javad's are a pintel design (like the RS2 Bosch). The Lucas/Delphi injectors use "a small disc with six holes around its circumference. The disc rests on a short chimney that surrounds a metering hole. As the disc is raised off the chimney by magnetic force, fuel flows through the holes in the disc, over the walls of the chimney, and out the metering hole to form a full, finely atomized cone." (OR SO THEY SAY)