Electric System Malfunction
05-19-2023, 05:05 PM
#891
AudiWorld Super User
Hear me out on this one...and maybe laugh a little if you think i'm crazy.
My brain doesn't like problems that don't have solutions so I was thinking what may cause what could be a higher rate of failure for BSGs in the winter. If it *is* condensation as a root cause, then hear me out.
What if the root cause is something like a hot car on a cold day going through an automatic car wash. Think about it - all of that salt, water, steam, all at once causes a significant amount of condensation. If you've ever been to a car wash tunnel in the winter, you may recall massive amounts of steam in the entrance and exit.
So to those of you who have had BSG failures, is there *any* correlation between time of car wash in the winter and failure of the BSG?
My brain doesn't like problems that don't have solutions so I was thinking what may cause what could be a higher rate of failure for BSGs in the winter. If it *is* condensation as a root cause, then hear me out.
What if the root cause is something like a hot car on a cold day going through an automatic car wash. Think about it - all of that salt, water, steam, all at once causes a significant amount of condensation. If you've ever been to a car wash tunnel in the winter, you may recall massive amounts of steam in the entrance and exit.
So to those of you who have had BSG failures, is there *any* correlation between time of car wash in the winter and failure of the BSG?
I think that they at Audi still do not know what is the cause of the BSG failure.
The following users liked this post:
angrypengu (05-19-2023)
05-19-2023, 07:41 PM
#892
AudiWorld Junior Member
Hear me out on this one...and maybe laugh a little if you think i'm crazy.
My brain doesn't like problems that don't have solutions so I was thinking what may cause what could be a higher rate of failure for BSGs in the winter. If it *is* condensation as a root cause, then hear me out.
What if the root cause is something like a hot car on a cold day going through an automatic car wash. Think about it - all of that salt, water, steam, all at once causes a significant amount of condensation. If you've ever been to a car wash tunnel in the winter, you may recall massive amounts of steam in the entrance and exit.
So to those of you who have had BSG failures, is there *any* correlation between time of car wash in the winter and failure of the BSG?
My brain doesn't like problems that don't have solutions so I was thinking what may cause what could be a higher rate of failure for BSGs in the winter. If it *is* condensation as a root cause, then hear me out.
What if the root cause is something like a hot car on a cold day going through an automatic car wash. Think about it - all of that salt, water, steam, all at once causes a significant amount of condensation. If you've ever been to a car wash tunnel in the winter, you may recall massive amounts of steam in the entrance and exit.
So to those of you who have had BSG failures, is there *any* correlation between time of car wash in the winter and failure of the BSG?
05-20-2023, 05:40 AM
#893
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Northwest, Washington State, USA
Posts: 1,658
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Condensation:
I am open to it but I am not quite sold.
let’s talk about it. . .
condensation forms on the warmer side of a surface if there is enough of a temp difference and the right level of humidity.
i.e. on inside of a house’s single pane window in winter and outside in summer.
if we think of the electronics housing on the back of the bsg as the house…as a cold bsg is warming up, but isn’t yet at operating temperature, condensation could form.
I theorize that once the bsg is at operating temp, the temperature difference would not create condensation because the heat of the bsg at operating temperature would keep it from forming. like turning up the heat in a house w single pane windows reduces or eliminates the condensation because that moisture reabsorbs into the air.
so the question is: could a car wash would create condensation if the system is at operating temp?
the condensation would need to be heavy enough to disrupt the circuit in someway.
if you insulate the electronics housing somehow, just like in the case of a dual window pane, the condensation would not form, but this would also keep the electronics hotter, which could possibly cause another failure.
what about cars in climates with more moderate temps? my assumption is the failure rate is the same. is that wrong? are failures in moderate climates higher in winter as well?
all just food for thought.
I am open to it but I am not quite sold.
let’s talk about it. . .
condensation forms on the warmer side of a surface if there is enough of a temp difference and the right level of humidity.
i.e. on inside of a house’s single pane window in winter and outside in summer.
if we think of the electronics housing on the back of the bsg as the house…as a cold bsg is warming up, but isn’t yet at operating temperature, condensation could form.
I theorize that once the bsg is at operating temp, the temperature difference would not create condensation because the heat of the bsg at operating temperature would keep it from forming. like turning up the heat in a house w single pane windows reduces or eliminates the condensation because that moisture reabsorbs into the air.
so the question is: could a car wash would create condensation if the system is at operating temp?
the condensation would need to be heavy enough to disrupt the circuit in someway.
if you insulate the electronics housing somehow, just like in the case of a dual window pane, the condensation would not form, but this would also keep the electronics hotter, which could possibly cause another failure.
what about cars in climates with more moderate temps? my assumption is the failure rate is the same. is that wrong? are failures in moderate climates higher in winter as well?
all just food for thought.
The following users liked this post:
angrypengu (05-20-2023)
05-21-2023, 12:15 PM
#894
AudiWorld Member
Hear me out on this one...and maybe laugh a little if you think i'm crazy.
My brain doesn't like problems that don't have solutions so I was thinking what may cause what could be a higher rate of failure for BSGs in the winter. If it *is* condensation as a root cause, then hear me out.
What if the root cause is something like a hot car on a cold day going through an automatic car wash. Think about it - all of that salt, water, steam, all at once causes a significant amount of condensation. If you've ever been to a car wash tunnel in the winter, you may recall massive amounts of steam in the entrance and exit.
So to those of you who have had BSG failures, is there *any* correlation between time of car wash in the winter and failure of the BSG?
My brain doesn't like problems that don't have solutions so I was thinking what may cause what could be a higher rate of failure for BSGs in the winter. If it *is* condensation as a root cause, then hear me out.
What if the root cause is something like a hot car on a cold day going through an automatic car wash. Think about it - all of that salt, water, steam, all at once causes a significant amount of condensation. If you've ever been to a car wash tunnel in the winter, you may recall massive amounts of steam in the entrance and exit.
So to those of you who have had BSG failures, is there *any* correlation between time of car wash in the winter and failure of the BSG?
05-21-2023, 05:55 PM
#895
AudiWorld Super User
Condensation:
I am open to it but I am not quite sold.
let’s talk about it. . .
condensation forms on the warmer side of a surface if there is enough of a temp difference and the right level of humidity.
i.e. on inside of a house’s single pane window in winter and outside in summer.
if we think of the electronics housing on the back of the bsg as the house…as a cold bsg is warming up, but isn’t yet at operating temperature, condensation could form.
I theorize that once the bsg is at operating temp, the temperature difference would not create condensation because the heat of the bsg at operating temperature would keep it from forming. like turning up the heat in a house w single pane windows reduces or eliminates the condensation because that moisture reabsorbs into the air.
so the question is: could a car wash would create condensation if the system is at operating temp?
the condensation would need to be heavy enough to disrupt the circuit in someway.
if you insulate the electronics housing somehow, just like in the case of a dual window pane, the condensation would not form, but this would also keep the electronics hotter, which could possibly cause another failure.
what about cars in climates with more moderate temps? my assumption is the failure rate is the same. is that wrong? are failures in moderate climates higher in winter as well?
all just food for thought.
I am open to it but I am not quite sold.
let’s talk about it. . .
condensation forms on the warmer side of a surface if there is enough of a temp difference and the right level of humidity.
i.e. on inside of a house’s single pane window in winter and outside in summer.
if we think of the electronics housing on the back of the bsg as the house…as a cold bsg is warming up, but isn’t yet at operating temperature, condensation could form.
I theorize that once the bsg is at operating temp, the temperature difference would not create condensation because the heat of the bsg at operating temperature would keep it from forming. like turning up the heat in a house w single pane windows reduces or eliminates the condensation because that moisture reabsorbs into the air.
so the question is: could a car wash would create condensation if the system is at operating temp?
the condensation would need to be heavy enough to disrupt the circuit in someway.
if you insulate the electronics housing somehow, just like in the case of a dual window pane, the condensation would not form, but this would also keep the electronics hotter, which could possibly cause another failure.
what about cars in climates with more moderate temps? my assumption is the failure rate is the same. is that wrong? are failures in moderate climates higher in winter as well?
all just food for thought.
Here is what I think we know from a data point perspective.
1) It appears that more failures happen in the winter
2) It appears that failures can happen at low and and high mileage and that mileage doesn't seem to show any sort of correlation
3) There is a statement form an AW poster that an Audi mechanic indicated that condensation is what is causing BSG to fail
4) There doesn't appear to be any definite case that all BSGs fail in the winter (adding additional colour to point #1)
So that's where the car wash theory came from. To your point, if condensation in the winter was actually a problem all of the time then we would see a systemic repeated failure of the BSG to all Audi's with this system but we don't see that. The vast majority of cold-heat cycles will happen without any sort of measurable condensation.
But, let's take a car wash as an example. Hot car goes from a cold ambient temperature to a high humidity 'hot' temperature (say in a tunnel). We know that immediate transition creates immediate condensate and that the reason we don't feel it in a car is because we have the heater on (and some vehicles have compressors that still run in the winter - Audi isn't one of them of course). If anybody were to take their car in the middle of the winter and drive through a tunnel with their AC/heat/fan off, we would all see our windows immediate condensate over and everybody would become very 'humid' very quickly.
I don't know if I'm right, but that's the basis of my theory, anyway.
05-22-2023, 10:13 AM
#896
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Northwest, Washington State, USA
Posts: 1,658
Received 416 Likes
on
353 Posts
Your additional provided colour is actually very helpful and while I had posited it I certainly didn't write it down and failed to articulate it to your level.
Here is what I think we know from a data point perspective.
1) It appears that more failures happen in the winter
2) It appears that failures can happen at low and and high mileage and that mileage doesn't seem to show any sort of correlation
3) There is a statement form an AW poster that an Audi mechanic indicated that condensation is what is causing BSG to fail
4) There doesn't appear to be any definite case that all BSGs fail in the winter (adding additional colour to point #1)
So that's where the car wash theory came from. To your point, if condensation in the winter was actually a problem all of the time then we would see a systemic repeated failure of the BSG to all Audi's with this system but we don't see that. The vast majority of cold-heat cycles will happen without any sort of measurable condensation.
But, let's take a car wash as an example. Hot car goes from a cold ambient temperature to a high humidity 'hot' temperature (say in a tunnel). We know that immediate transition creates immediate condensate and that the reason we don't feel it in a car is because we have the heater on (and some vehicles have compressors that still run in the winter - Audi isn't one of them of course). If anybody were to take their car in the middle of the winter and drive through a tunnel with their AC/heat/fan off, we would all see our windows immediate condensate over and everybody would become very 'humid' very quickly.
I don't know if I'm right, but that's the basis of my theory, anyway.
Here is what I think we know from a data point perspective.
1) It appears that more failures happen in the winter
2) It appears that failures can happen at low and and high mileage and that mileage doesn't seem to show any sort of correlation
3) There is a statement form an AW poster that an Audi mechanic indicated that condensation is what is causing BSG to fail
4) There doesn't appear to be any definite case that all BSGs fail in the winter (adding additional colour to point #1)
So that's where the car wash theory came from. To your point, if condensation in the winter was actually a problem all of the time then we would see a systemic repeated failure of the BSG to all Audi's with this system but we don't see that. The vast majority of cold-heat cycles will happen without any sort of measurable condensation.
But, let's take a car wash as an example. Hot car goes from a cold ambient temperature to a high humidity 'hot' temperature (say in a tunnel). We know that immediate transition creates immediate condensate and that the reason we don't feel it in a car is because we have the heater on (and some vehicles have compressors that still run in the winter - Audi isn't one of them of course). If anybody were to take their car in the middle of the winter and drive through a tunnel with their AC/heat/fan off, we would all see our windows immediate condensate over and everybody would become very 'humid' very quickly.
I don't know if I'm right, but that's the basis of my theory, anyway.
What temp is their water and do they keep it the same temp year round?
My sense (at least in my area, Northwest) is due to environmental and green goals they do not "heat" the water much beyond what is required to keep the car wash functional. I will let you know what they say. In colder climates, the story may be different.
That said, if there is a case where water is heated up to say 80 degrees - I 100% agree there would be steam and condensation would occur immediately all over everything and the condensation would be there at least for the duration of the carwash even if it evaporated off quickly after.
@weever do you mind sharing which dealer and the techs name? I would be curious to follow up with them very generally and see if we can get their tech to say more about his observations related to condensation.
05-22-2023, 11:28 AM
#897
AudiWorld Super User
I will ask my local car wash:
What temp is their water and do they keep it the same temp year round?
My sense (at least in my area, Northwest) is due to environmental and green goals they do not "heat" the water much beyond what is required to keep the car wash functional. I will let you know what they say. In colder climates, the story may be different.
That said, if there is a case where water is heated up to say 80 degrees - I 100% agree there would be steam and condensation would occur immediately all over everything and the condensation would be there at least for the duration of the carwash even if it evaporated off quickly after.
@weever do you mind sharing which dealer and the techs name? I would be curious to follow up with them very generally and see if we can get their tech to say more about his observations related to condensation.
What temp is their water and do they keep it the same temp year round?
My sense (at least in my area, Northwest) is due to environmental and green goals they do not "heat" the water much beyond what is required to keep the car wash functional. I will let you know what they say. In colder climates, the story may be different.
That said, if there is a case where water is heated up to say 80 degrees - I 100% agree there would be steam and condensation would occur immediately all over everything and the condensation would be there at least for the duration of the carwash even if it evaporated off quickly after.
@weever do you mind sharing which dealer and the techs name? I would be curious to follow up with them very generally and see if we can get their tech to say more about his observations related to condensation.
Because of the cost of fresh water, all of these car washes reuse water after it's filtered. So in essence, cold water is used again and again to clean off cars as they come in and as such over time this water becomes quite warm especially as the day progresses.
So water is sprayed onto a car with cold panels and some of it makes it way to the engine (behind the front grill) which is insanely hot so as such there are multiple opportunities for condensation to occur
05-22-2023, 03:17 PM
#898
AudiWorld Super User
Oh, I do know how those car tunnel things work. The water isn't heated, but "it" is indirectly.
Because of the cost of fresh water, all of these car washes reuse water after it's filtered. So in essence, cold water is used again and again to clean off cars as they come in and as such over time this water becomes quite warm especially as the day progresses.
So water is sprayed onto a car with cold panels and some of it makes it way to the engine (behind the front grill) which is insanely hot so as such there are multiple opportunities for condensation to occur
Because of the cost of fresh water, all of these car washes reuse water after it's filtered. So in essence, cold water is used again and again to clean off cars as they come in and as such over time this water becomes quite warm especially as the day progresses.
So water is sprayed onto a car with cold panels and some of it makes it way to the engine (behind the front grill) which is insanely hot so as such there are multiple opportunities for condensation to occur
I recently spoke to an independent Audi mechanic I know. Before Audi decided to extend the warranty on the BSG, they replaced several BSGs in various Audi models with a 48V installation. Of course, they took care of cars out of warranty.
He told me that they did not find the cause of the BSG failure or any correlation with any external conditions or mileage of the car.
The failure of the BSG in his customers cars occurred suddenly with the information of an electrical fault. Some customers managed to get to the workshop before the 48V battery was completely discharged. After full discharging, a Christmas tree appeared on the dashboard and the car was completely immobilized.
This what he said and is a bit worrying is that in 2 cases, in addition to the BSG failure, they also had to replace the damaged 48V battery. For them it was absolutely obvious that faulty BSG damaged the electronics of this battery.
I also asked him why they did not repair expensive BSG (he is an electronics engineer) and he told me that the BSG is constructed in the so-called hybrid technology, instead of the transistors known to us, only silicon structures are used in the housings, which are non-replaceable. Theoretically, they could be replaced with "ordinary" transistors, but in the case of this generator, special transistors with an estimated allowable current flow of 300A were used. Even if they could find the right parts, replacing them would require disassembling the alternator to heat the electronics to high temperatures. By disassembling the stator and rotor of the generator, they would not be able to put them back in the same position. This is very important because in the electronics of the alternator there is a so-called a vector controller that measures the current in each phase and the angle of rotation of the rotor. Any fraction of a millimeter out of specification would cause the generator to malfunction. After a possible repair, the controller should be calibrated again what is possible in the factory but is impossible in the workshop conditions.
He also confirmed that when replacing the BSG, it is necessary to adapt it with the appropriate software. What Audi dealers do is not upload new, improved software, but only the necessary adaptation of a new part.
What still intrigues me is why the SQ8's have a 12V alternator and the RSQ8's still have a 48V BSG. The Lamborghini Urus which is very related to the RSQ8 also has a 12V alternator so all the know-how is there. I am sure that this BSG issue must be very costly for Audi since we are talking here not about hundreds but rather about thousands of immobilized cars.
The following 2 users liked this post by retom:
angrypengu (05-22-2023),
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05-22-2023, 04:19 PM
#899
AudiWorld Super User
I really appreciate your desperation in explaining the cause of the BSG glitch. I keep my fingers crossed for your success because I still think that Audi has not solved this problem in new cars.
I recently spoke to an independent Audi mechanic I know. Before Audi decided to extend the warranty on the BSG, they replaced several BSGs in various Audi models with a 48V installation. Of course, they took care of cars out of warranty.
He told me that they did not find the cause of the BSG failure or any correlation with any external conditions or mileage of the car.
The failure of the BSG in his customers cars occurred suddenly with the information of an electrical fault. Some customers managed to get to the workshop before the 48V battery was completely discharged. After full discharging, a Christmas tree appeared on the dashboard and the car was completely immobilized.
This what he said and is a bit worrying is that in 2 cases, in addition to the BSG failure, they also had to replace the damaged 48V battery. For them it was absolutely obvious that faulty BSG damaged the electronics of this battery.
I also asked him why they did not repair expensive BSG (he is an electronics engineer) and he told me that the BSG is constructed in the so-called hybrid technology, instead of the transistors known to us, only silicon structures are used in the housings, which are non-replaceable. Theoretically, they could be replaced with "ordinary" transistors, but in the case of this generator, special transistors with an estimated allowable current flow of 300A were used. Even if they could find the right parts, replacing them would require disassembling the alternator to heat the electronics to high temperatures. By disassembling the stator and rotor of the generator, they would not be able to put them back in the same position. This is very important because in the electronics of the alternator there is a so-called a vector controller that measures the current in each phase and the angle of rotation of the rotor. Any fraction of a millimeter out of specification would cause the generator to malfunction. After a possible repair, the controller should be calibrated again what is possible in the factory but is impossible in the workshop conditions.
He also confirmed that when replacing the BSG, it is necessary to adapt it with the appropriate software. What Audi dealers do is not upload new, improved software, but only the necessary adaptation of a new part.
What still intrigues me is why the SQ8's have a 12V alternator and the RSQ8's still have a 48V BSG. The Lamborghini Urus which is very related to the RSQ8 also has a 12V alternator so all the know-how is there. I am sure that this BSG issue must be very costly for Audi since we are talking here not about hundreds but rather about thousands of immobilized cars.
I recently spoke to an independent Audi mechanic I know. Before Audi decided to extend the warranty on the BSG, they replaced several BSGs in various Audi models with a 48V installation. Of course, they took care of cars out of warranty.
He told me that they did not find the cause of the BSG failure or any correlation with any external conditions or mileage of the car.
The failure of the BSG in his customers cars occurred suddenly with the information of an electrical fault. Some customers managed to get to the workshop before the 48V battery was completely discharged. After full discharging, a Christmas tree appeared on the dashboard and the car was completely immobilized.
This what he said and is a bit worrying is that in 2 cases, in addition to the BSG failure, they also had to replace the damaged 48V battery. For them it was absolutely obvious that faulty BSG damaged the electronics of this battery.
I also asked him why they did not repair expensive BSG (he is an electronics engineer) and he told me that the BSG is constructed in the so-called hybrid technology, instead of the transistors known to us, only silicon structures are used in the housings, which are non-replaceable. Theoretically, they could be replaced with "ordinary" transistors, but in the case of this generator, special transistors with an estimated allowable current flow of 300A were used. Even if they could find the right parts, replacing them would require disassembling the alternator to heat the electronics to high temperatures. By disassembling the stator and rotor of the generator, they would not be able to put them back in the same position. This is very important because in the electronics of the alternator there is a so-called a vector controller that measures the current in each phase and the angle of rotation of the rotor. Any fraction of a millimeter out of specification would cause the generator to malfunction. After a possible repair, the controller should be calibrated again what is possible in the factory but is impossible in the workshop conditions.
He also confirmed that when replacing the BSG, it is necessary to adapt it with the appropriate software. What Audi dealers do is not upload new, improved software, but only the necessary adaptation of a new part.
What still intrigues me is why the SQ8's have a 12V alternator and the RSQ8's still have a 48V BSG. The Lamborghini Urus which is very related to the RSQ8 also has a 12V alternator so all the know-how is there. I am sure that this BSG issue must be very costly for Audi since we are talking here not about hundreds but rather about thousands of immobilized cars.
05-24-2023, 11:05 AM
#900
AudiWorld Junior Member
Audi Canada gave me a $1200 CAD credit
Just got off the phone with a Supervisor at Audi Canada. He was very good about it and offered a $1200 CAD Audi Credit that can be used towards the purchase of service, parts and accessories for my Audi vehicle or can be used as down payment on my next new Audi vehicle.
I am satisfied with this resolution. Not thrilled with my local dealer’s service dept so will try a different dealer for future services.
I am satisfied with this resolution. Not thrilled with my local dealer’s service dept so will try a different dealer for future services.
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angrypengu (05-24-2023)