New R8 video (hope it's not a re-post)
02-28-2008, 06:19 PM
#2
Re: New R8 video (hope it's not a re-post)
re "break-in rules", which is a topic that can always get a good argument going!<ul><li><a href="http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm">http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm</a</li></ul>
02-28-2008, 07:55 PM
#3
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Break in periods are designed to keep drivers alive, not engines
In any new, unfamiliar car, it's important to take it easy until you are accustomed to driving that vehicle, or a few thousand miles.
02-29-2008, 09:43 AM
#4
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Just about every engine sold from every company is run at full throttle
for minutes to hours (depending on company) before leaving the factory.
Break-in isn't of much concern to modern engines.
Break-in isn't of much concern to modern engines.
03-01-2008, 10:01 AM
#5
Here is something to ponder......
Last year Audi produced 980,880 cars. Ingolstadt alone produced 528,310 cars. Neckarsulm 279,184.
So if each engine was run for say 5 minutes. That is a total of 4,904,400 minutes or 81,740 hours. Or if the plant is running on 35 hour work weeks, that is 2335 work weeks. So if they took no holidays (ha ha), that would require 44 workers doing nothing but starting up the engines, checking them, and running them in some prescribed manner - not counting hooking up to exhaust equipment, etc, which probably takes at least twice that long. The average factory worker in Germany makes around 3500 Euros a month. 42,000 Euros a year. 1,848,000 Euros for 44 workers to "break in" cars. And that does not count the back end employee costs that each employer pays of course - that can double the up front wage cost.
I think it's cheaper to print a break-in procedure in the owner's manual and play the odds that some people won't observe it
So if each engine was run for say 5 minutes. That is a total of 4,904,400 minutes or 81,740 hours. Or if the plant is running on 35 hour work weeks, that is 2335 work weeks. So if they took no holidays (ha ha), that would require 44 workers doing nothing but starting up the engines, checking them, and running them in some prescribed manner - not counting hooking up to exhaust equipment, etc, which probably takes at least twice that long. The average factory worker in Germany makes around 3500 Euros a month. 42,000 Euros a year. 1,848,000 Euros for 44 workers to "break in" cars. And that does not count the back end employee costs that each employer pays of course - that can double the up front wage cost.
I think it's cheaper to print a break-in procedure in the owner's manual and play the odds that some people won't observe it
03-01-2008, 10:14 AM
#6
Yeah, but that applies to racing motocycle engines. The guy who espouses that method
has aggressively marketed himself and lots of people like the idea that they can hammer a car (or bike) immediately upon puchase;-)
Granted, engine machining technology has advanced, but you can bet some bean counter got together with some engineer and looked at the number of claims resulting from different types of break-in and use. Federal Mogul says their top rings do not need to be broken in, but the lower oil control rings need several thousand miles to fully seat.
A transmission often needs breaking in as well. Something not noted by racers who either have super-honed trannies or are willing to put up with clunks in the name of expediency. A good example would be to hook up a 10,000 trailer to a new truck and see how long the diff lasts...
I kinda figure that hundreds if not thousands of engineers over many years have figured this out better than a single guy who has done a wonderful job of promoting his point of view. Yeah, he builds and races bikes, but that has a different set of priorities from street cars. Remember he's rebuilding those engines once or twice a race season, and the goal is to have max power as soon as possible.
Here's another (motorcycle based again) point of view
http://www.rc51.org/breakin.htm
And a magazine article:
"Motoman claims his procedure works on all four-stroke engines, though he admits that most of the 300 engines he's tested power air-cooled motorcycles and snowmobiles.
Could beating on a brand-new car engine boost its performance? Are manufacturers simply hesitant to recommend a full-throttle break-in out of fear of drivers exceeding speed limits?
For answers, I rang up long-time GM engine guru Dave Lancaster, and he agrees that in smaller, low-cost air-cooled engines (which expand and contract more as temperatures change) such a technique might indeed pay off. But the microfinished bores, high-tension rings, and precision-build tolerances in today's automotive engines yield excellent ring sealing from new, so any change in power output attributable to such a radical procedure would be miniscule if measurable at all. He notes that power and fuel economy generally improve throughout the break-in period as friction diminishes in all moving parts. Ford's engine durability specialist Mike Herr concurs with all the above as do the engine R&D experts at Honda.
Motoman counters by arguing that the fine machining and high-precision build quality of modern engines serve only to shorten the window of opportunity to "seat the rings," making it even more important to do the heavy-duty accels right off the bat. But if his procedure works, why don't manufacturers perform it in the plant on a dyno, especially on performance engines like the handbuilt Corvette LS7 and supercharged Northstar? They would, but Lancaster and Herr confirm the only engines that get such treatment are those undergoing torture-testing during development to ensure that the Motomans of the world won't ring up big warranty claims.
My final problem with these Web claims is that they seem unverifiable. Since no two engines--especially smaller, cheaper ones--produce equivalent power fresh off the assembly line, it's impossible to attribute small performance differences to a break-in procedure. So it's your choice: Follow your owner's manual recommendations (which usually entail gentle driving at varying engine speeds and no towing for between 300 and 1000 miles); or pursue Web logic in hopes of gaining a racer's edge of added performance."
(http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0603_technologue_race_performance/)
In any case, my cars have all had a conservative (but not babying after the first 100 miles) break-in, and the lowest miles car I have sold is 127K miles and running fine. My Alfa has 268K miles, sees redline every time the oil is warm enough, and sees the track a few times a year - burns no oil.
Granted, engine machining technology has advanced, but you can bet some bean counter got together with some engineer and looked at the number of claims resulting from different types of break-in and use. Federal Mogul says their top rings do not need to be broken in, but the lower oil control rings need several thousand miles to fully seat.
A transmission often needs breaking in as well. Something not noted by racers who either have super-honed trannies or are willing to put up with clunks in the name of expediency. A good example would be to hook up a 10,000 trailer to a new truck and see how long the diff lasts...
I kinda figure that hundreds if not thousands of engineers over many years have figured this out better than a single guy who has done a wonderful job of promoting his point of view. Yeah, he builds and races bikes, but that has a different set of priorities from street cars. Remember he's rebuilding those engines once or twice a race season, and the goal is to have max power as soon as possible.
Here's another (motorcycle based again) point of view
http://www.rc51.org/breakin.htm
And a magazine article:
"Motoman claims his procedure works on all four-stroke engines, though he admits that most of the 300 engines he's tested power air-cooled motorcycles and snowmobiles.
Could beating on a brand-new car engine boost its performance? Are manufacturers simply hesitant to recommend a full-throttle break-in out of fear of drivers exceeding speed limits?
For answers, I rang up long-time GM engine guru Dave Lancaster, and he agrees that in smaller, low-cost air-cooled engines (which expand and contract more as temperatures change) such a technique might indeed pay off. But the microfinished bores, high-tension rings, and precision-build tolerances in today's automotive engines yield excellent ring sealing from new, so any change in power output attributable to such a radical procedure would be miniscule if measurable at all. He notes that power and fuel economy generally improve throughout the break-in period as friction diminishes in all moving parts. Ford's engine durability specialist Mike Herr concurs with all the above as do the engine R&D experts at Honda.
Motoman counters by arguing that the fine machining and high-precision build quality of modern engines serve only to shorten the window of opportunity to "seat the rings," making it even more important to do the heavy-duty accels right off the bat. But if his procedure works, why don't manufacturers perform it in the plant on a dyno, especially on performance engines like the handbuilt Corvette LS7 and supercharged Northstar? They would, but Lancaster and Herr confirm the only engines that get such treatment are those undergoing torture-testing during development to ensure that the Motomans of the world won't ring up big warranty claims.
My final problem with these Web claims is that they seem unverifiable. Since no two engines--especially smaller, cheaper ones--produce equivalent power fresh off the assembly line, it's impossible to attribute small performance differences to a break-in procedure. So it's your choice: Follow your owner's manual recommendations (which usually entail gentle driving at varying engine speeds and no towing for between 300 and 1000 miles); or pursue Web logic in hopes of gaining a racer's edge of added performance."
(http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0603_technologue_race_performance/)
In any case, my cars have all had a conservative (but not babying after the first 100 miles) break-in, and the lowest miles car I have sold is 127K miles and running fine. My Alfa has 268K miles, sees redline every time the oil is warm enough, and sees the track a few times a year - burns no oil.
03-01-2008, 02:34 PM
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The purpose is not to break the cars in, that's just the side effect...
the purpose is to check for proper performance and operation which is a MUST for quality control.
A certain German car manufacturer (who will remain nameless) had a problem with one of their car lines that was found to surface after 10-20 hours of engine operation. It was deemed a monetary risk and a reputation risk if this problem led to a recall.
The solution was to run each engine for 40 hours before installing it into the car.
These types of situations happen and 99% of the time the end customer never finds out.
A certain German car manufacturer (who will remain nameless) had a problem with one of their car lines that was found to surface after 10-20 hours of engine operation. It was deemed a monetary risk and a reputation risk if this problem led to a recall.
The solution was to run each engine for 40 hours before installing it into the car.
These types of situations happen and 99% of the time the end customer never finds out.
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03-01-2008, 03:17 PM
#8
I think you'll agree that running in an engine for 40 hours is not financially feasible
unless the brand/model is extremely profitable and limited production. Just think of all the space, resources, and worker time that takes up!
I can see random samples being tested via engine test cells or rolling road dynos, but every car in a normal production facility?
I can see random samples being tested via engine test cells or rolling road dynos, but every car in a normal production facility?
03-02-2008, 08:19 AM
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To expound on this a little further...
I don't believe Motoman's method is going to do you any harm. On the flipside, it won't bring the benefits he claims either. There's no "magic" window of opportunity on seating the piston rings or wearing in the bore surfaces. Motoman is dead wrong on that account.
All engines will see some breakin effect. Oil consumption and blowby usually drops sharply after 20-100 hours of engine use.
Motoman's method is true in that the harder the engine is used, the sooner the performance improve. However, if the engine is put under less load, it will still experience a breakin effect and the performance will improve and stabilize...it just will take more time.
Just about all piston rings these days go through a process called "lapping". They are inserted into a round sleeve similar to an engine bore and run up and down through a gritty fluid. This process creates a contact band on the surface of the piston ring. Long story short, the piston rings are partially broken in before they are even assembled into the engine.
This process has the highest effect on the top and mid ring due to the shapes of the running surface (barrel shape for the top ring and taper face for the mid ring). Oil rings (unless they have a stepped design, not anything Audi would use on a gasoline engine at the moment) don't require any specific breakin.
The top and mid rings will take longer to bed in as their contact surfaces will widen over time. It takes tens of thousands of miles for a top ring to achieve full contact on the running face and side flanks.
All engines will see some breakin effect. Oil consumption and blowby usually drops sharply after 20-100 hours of engine use.
Motoman's method is true in that the harder the engine is used, the sooner the performance improve. However, if the engine is put under less load, it will still experience a breakin effect and the performance will improve and stabilize...it just will take more time.
Just about all piston rings these days go through a process called "lapping". They are inserted into a round sleeve similar to an engine bore and run up and down through a gritty fluid. This process creates a contact band on the surface of the piston ring. Long story short, the piston rings are partially broken in before they are even assembled into the engine.
This process has the highest effect on the top and mid ring due to the shapes of the running surface (barrel shape for the top ring and taper face for the mid ring). Oil rings (unless they have a stepped design, not anything Audi would use on a gasoline engine at the moment) don't require any specific breakin.
The top and mid rings will take longer to bed in as their contact surfaces will widen over time. It takes tens of thousands of miles for a top ring to achieve full contact on the running face and side flanks.