McIntosh worth the money?
11-22-2002, 04:03 AM
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McIntosh worth the money?
I am thinking seriously of upgrading my stock A6 system with McIntosh amplifier for 4 doors with Dynaudio or MBQuart speakers (or maybe a/d/s speakers).
These amps are WAY expensive but I've heard they are the best. Can you really hear the difference in these amps?
These amps are WAY expensive but I've heard they are the best. Can you really hear the difference in these amps?
11-22-2002, 08:16 AM
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No, you really can't. There really isn't any BEST amplifier out there. If you go to
www.carsound.com and go to the forums, there is alot of info on amplifiers if you search the forum called "Richard Clark on audio". Honestly, you won't hear a difference between the McIntosh, Phoenix Gold, Xtant, Zapco , PPI amps, etc.....if you have your system with good components, and tuned properly....you won't hear a difference. If you're buying the Mac amp because you want a Mac amp (features, look, name), then that's fine....but if you're buying it because you think or been told it's the BEST there is and sounds much better than anything else out there, then you're spending money that you don't need to. You won't hear a difference to justify the price difference between it and the other brands I listed.
This topic is run into the ground on the forum I told you about. If you an A/B test, you really can't hear a difference. Richard Clark has like a $10k challange to any amp manufacture to take the test to prove their amp (w/o fancy processors, amplifier section) sounds better than any other. Buy the amp casue of features or looks you like, but not because it's supposed to be the best sounding. You might be real disappointed one day when you hear a system with an amp 40% of the cost sound as good or better.
This topic is run into the ground on the forum I told you about. If you an A/B test, you really can't hear a difference. Richard Clark has like a $10k challange to any amp manufacture to take the test to prove their amp (w/o fancy processors, amplifier section) sounds better than any other. Buy the amp casue of features or looks you like, but not because it's supposed to be the best sounding. You might be real disappointed one day when you hear a system with an amp 40% of the cost sound as good or better.
11-22-2002, 09:55 AM
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let me tell you steps on choosing audio set-up (in my experience)...
first,
choose the type of music you often listen. jazz and hip-hop certainly needs different tuning. from this you'll find the characteristic of the set-up (SQ,SPL or SQL)
second,
choose the speakers. yup, they are #1 priority of audio set-up. each speakers had it own personality. some good for mids, some good for highs, some both, some neither. your ear is the best judge, no other's. a lot of survey to audio shops and you might find the type you want
third,
choose the amps. when you decided to a specific speakers, look for it's power demand. then , compare to amp's output. little suggest. if the speaker can hold 100w continous, better go with slightly higher amps, like 120 or 150, so you get a better headroom (by it, you don't push the amp to it's limit therefore making the output more better). imagine a 100hp car and 150 hp car doing 200km/h for 5hours. which one's not screaming
fourth,
choose the cables. this is where most of the power loss went. the shorter the wire, the better. the best cable material is copper. some says silver, but actually silver is not so good conductor. although they are more corrosive-resistant than copper. just look for silver/gold plated copper wires to go.
last, but not least,
INSTALLATION. a state of the art speakers and state of the art amps with state of the art cables will sound like CRAP if you don't have great installation
choose the type of music you often listen. jazz and hip-hop certainly needs different tuning. from this you'll find the characteristic of the set-up (SQ,SPL or SQL)
second,
choose the speakers. yup, they are #1 priority of audio set-up. each speakers had it own personality. some good for mids, some good for highs, some both, some neither. your ear is the best judge, no other's. a lot of survey to audio shops and you might find the type you want
third,
choose the amps. when you decided to a specific speakers, look for it's power demand. then , compare to amp's output. little suggest. if the speaker can hold 100w continous, better go with slightly higher amps, like 120 or 150, so you get a better headroom (by it, you don't push the amp to it's limit therefore making the output more better). imagine a 100hp car and 150 hp car doing 200km/h for 5hours. which one's not screaming
fourth,
choose the cables. this is where most of the power loss went. the shorter the wire, the better. the best cable material is copper. some says silver, but actually silver is not so good conductor. although they are more corrosive-resistant than copper. just look for silver/gold plated copper wires to go.
last, but not least,
INSTALLATION. a state of the art speakers and state of the art amps with state of the art cables will sound like CRAP if you don't have great installation
11-22-2002, 01:45 PM
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clark had some asinine challenge like that a while ago with head units...
the guy may have built an amazing car back in the day, but he needs to get over his challenge sh*t. i respect his work and what he has accomplished, but it gets a little *iffy* at times.
i had 3 different head units installed in my car in one day and they ALL sounded different. the first head did not have the ability to defeat the tone, but the last two did. the first was my installed at the time eclipse entry with the levels set flat. the other was a clarion 9575, their pro-audio reference standard, and the last was an eclipse 5441. the eclipse 5441 is the one that stayed at the end of the day. the entry one sounded good, just needed more output power (2.2v out) and updated look/ interface. the clarion added all kinds of mid to the system as well as other interfacing (LOTS OF BASS), and the 5441 added more sound everywhere, possibly due to the higher voltage outs (which was comparable to the clarion 5v). the clarion sounded also good, just different, which i didn't like.
anyways his *challenge* stated that all headunits sound the exact same when bypassing the tone, which i honestly disproved in my personal car, as well as all the installers that were there. i don't need to go to north carolina to hear about his little details about how it will sound the same...which is what the amplifier bit is about. the stuff he has NOT come out and said directly.
i can hook up ANY amp directly to the speakers from the BOARD and they will sound exactly the same. but consumers on average must deal with a case, rca outs, grounds...etc. this could go on forever. when you step up to his challenge you bypass all of those details and join him at a test bench and hook up to the board and from the board. NOT an everyday convention. optimised if you will.
what you pay for in an amp is reliable power over various voltage fluctuations, s/n ratios, quality of chassis and connections (typical rca vs. reference quality), clip points, size vs. power output, blah blah blah...you get the point.
at the end of the day is the mac worth it, probably not. do all high end amps sound the same, for the most part. and like you said, whatever features float your boat...go for it.
as for my first experience with car audio to be simply dropping $5k+ in equipment is ridiculous, but hey, some got it...mac and dyna for a first setup, AND you have to ask the quality. i'd be putting the money into something else, because honestly only the most scrutinizing ears will pick the stuff up, most don't even notice it.
i had 3 different head units installed in my car in one day and they ALL sounded different. the first head did not have the ability to defeat the tone, but the last two did. the first was my installed at the time eclipse entry with the levels set flat. the other was a clarion 9575, their pro-audio reference standard, and the last was an eclipse 5441. the eclipse 5441 is the one that stayed at the end of the day. the entry one sounded good, just needed more output power (2.2v out) and updated look/ interface. the clarion added all kinds of mid to the system as well as other interfacing (LOTS OF BASS), and the 5441 added more sound everywhere, possibly due to the higher voltage outs (which was comparable to the clarion 5v). the clarion sounded also good, just different, which i didn't like.
anyways his *challenge* stated that all headunits sound the exact same when bypassing the tone, which i honestly disproved in my personal car, as well as all the installers that were there. i don't need to go to north carolina to hear about his little details about how it will sound the same...which is what the amplifier bit is about. the stuff he has NOT come out and said directly.
i can hook up ANY amp directly to the speakers from the BOARD and they will sound exactly the same. but consumers on average must deal with a case, rca outs, grounds...etc. this could go on forever. when you step up to his challenge you bypass all of those details and join him at a test bench and hook up to the board and from the board. NOT an everyday convention. optimised if you will.
what you pay for in an amp is reliable power over various voltage fluctuations, s/n ratios, quality of chassis and connections (typical rca vs. reference quality), clip points, size vs. power output, blah blah blah...you get the point.
at the end of the day is the mac worth it, probably not. do all high end amps sound the same, for the most part. and like you said, whatever features float your boat...go for it.
as for my first experience with car audio to be simply dropping $5k+ in equipment is ridiculous, but hey, some got it...mac and dyna for a first setup, AND you have to ask the quality. i'd be putting the money into something else, because honestly only the most scrutinizing ears will pick the stuff up, most don't even notice it.
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11-22-2002, 04:44 PM
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Yes, he does think he is the car audio god a little....but I do like the fact that he questions
the claims that companies make. Basically to me, he's causing people to really think about what is causing them to buy the product they desire. Can you really hear the difference between THD of .03 and .005....no, but it can and does sell product. Overall product quality, S/N, power supply and such is the reason to buy an higher quality unit. There's just a point to where once you keep going higher and higher up the price scale, quality really isn't any different...now it's just a name. I'm not saying that a $100 flea market amp will sound as good as a MAC, but when you look at the cost of an amp like the MAC versus other quality brands out there.....it doesn't sound that much better, if any better than another...definitely not 500-1500 dollars better. I will agree that you can hear slight differences if you have an hear for it. I can tell a difference between my Xtant, PPI and Alpine amps that are floating around here. I just have a overly sensitive ear...wish I didn't sometimes. To be honest, I think the older amps sound better and last longer than the newer stuff that's coming out. I am really really considering going back to Art Series PPI amps. They play so well and last for ever....8 years and still going strong. I have 2 A300s in one car and I will never sell those things....never.
11-23-2002, 12:37 PM
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Re: built by Clarion? Not a value judgement.
There has been some discussion in the past regarding the divide between McIntosh home and McIntosh mobile. Some "in the know" have reported that the McIntosh mobile line is built by Clarion.
11-25-2002, 12:29 PM
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art series...
have my 2050am sitting right here!
may purchase a ProMos 4x50 on ebay, if i can find one in black, but...i am still amazed at how large my system feels with just a jl 300.4 running the whole car. may upgrade down the line, but really no need to. i want to see what those w6v2 sound like, or maybe an image 10.
may purchase a ProMos 4x50 on ebay, if i can find one in black, but...i am still amazed at how large my system feels with just a jl 300.4 running the whole car. may upgrade down the line, but really no need to. i want to see what those w6v2 sound like, or maybe an image 10.