RussB

While browsing through the car audio section of the local Sucker City store, I noticed that Monster Cable speaker cables were on display with high prices. If you're tempted to buy Monster's speaker wire, first have a read through this page:<ul><li><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm">The Truth About Speaker Wire</a></li></ul>

HenryK

The article over simplifies and misses some very critical electrical charateristics that need to be taken into account with each component. While the authour uses the word impedance to describe speaker characteristics he does not apply the same characteristics to speaker wire. By this I mean he is only concerned with one element of impedance when it comes to speaker wire and that is resistance. Impedance is comprised of resistance, inductance and capacitance, all three of these must be looked at. Each in combination with each other will have a sonic signature unique to itself. The bottom line is that all these characteristics along with the amplifier and speaker must be taken into consideration when assembling an audio system. This is why one type of wire may "sound" great to an individual in a specific setup while the same wire in a different setup maynot produce the same pleasing affect. If your concerned strictly with maximum power transfer from the amplifier to the speaker, the impedane charateristic of the amplifier must be equal to the wire which in turn must be equal to the speaker. This however is never the case and at best could probably only be met at a single audio frequency, as we all know the fact remains that music reprudction contains audio frequency from 20 hz to 20Khz (for argument sake) and now you have a situation that is almost impossible to match perfectly with respect to impedance.

Good luck and remember ultimately your ears will be the deciding factor.

RussB

You make a good point regarding the fact that resistance is just one component of impedance.

Mr. Russell does discuss the fact that real world speaker impedance varies as a function of frequency, so I don't know why he limits his wire argument to resistance. Perhaps it's because inductive and capactive reactance of short hunks of wire are relatively small at audio frequencies? (I'll investigate further -- at least on paper. I suppose that one could measure these values on real wire lengths with an RX bridge.)

Are you arguing that a speaker wire is a transmission line, and that its VSWR should be kept to unity, over a 20 - 20,000 Hz range? I have no idea what the characteristic impedances of various speaker wires are; do you? (For argument's sake, who cares if voltage nodes occur, since dielectric losses of most wire insulation will be nil at audio frequencies?)

Mr. Russell states:

" . . .reference is made to an Audio Engineering Society paper by R. A. Greiner published in the JAES in May 1980 and titled "Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing." The conclusion is that speaker cables do not behave as transmission lines despite the theory subscribed to by many, if not most, esoteric cable designers. "

I'll hunt for this article. Maybe this is Mr. Russell's basis for limiting his argument to resistance?

In any case, I found Mr. Russell's observations to be worthwhile. I agree with his conclusion: that most Monster Cable usage is a waste of money.

HenryK

Depending on the construction parameters of the speaker wire, such as the material of the dielectric, the spacing of the two conductors, size and type of conductor, etc all influence its electrical characteristics. Of course all this varies again when the length of a given wire is changed. These charateristics can be measured and can affect the sonic signature in terms of performance. By how much is all relative and dependant on the actual wire, one can measure the parameters but ultimately it will be your ears that make the final call. I'll agree to some it's not a big deal and not worth being to concerned over, to others (that some may even label as being "****") it can be contributing factor. It's like everthing in life there is the extreme to seek perfection and the reality of what maybe accepted as adequate and the latter tends to vary from person to person. I don't subscribe to the notion that wire is wire it's how far you want to take it.
As far as speaker wire is concerned or any component interconnect is concerned the only way to look at it is to treat it as a transmission line. As far maximum power transfer is concerned I was only looking at what electical principles call for to obtain the ultimate and how it relates to frequency. Remember most of speaker wire on the market is very similar and probably has very similar electrical charateristics on the other hand what some high end manufacturers are trying to capitlise on is good sound electrical design principles. They are no doubt pushing the design envelope and of course raising the cost of their products. Is it worth it? I suppose it all depends on what your trying to acheive ultimately.

Regardless, Mr. Russell's observations and your own opinion still merit respect however, in real science these are parmeters that need to be considered, they do play a role and can have impact on coloration. How significant they are or how far one takes it all is yet another matter.

In summary, the automotive environment is very challenging to deal with to start, this coupled with the fact that certain recorded music and FM broadcasts tend to be far from equalized and is so over emphasized that affects of speaker wire and interconnect are probably a waste of time in the majority of installations. So I suppose in conclusion I'd agree with you, but for different reasons.

Interesting stuff and good debate eh?

RussB

"Interesting stuff and good debate eh?"

Indeed. I searched the web for pertinent references and found many, including some that look fascinating. I've not yet read through any, but will do so as time allows.

Did you read through Mr. Russell's site? There's some interesting audio info there. For one thing, I gather that all or most of McIntosh's speakers use(d) some form of passive circuitry within their cabinets to flatten their response. If one wants to split hairs, one could ask what effects these circuits have upon phase relationships of tones over the audio spectrum, and system transient response. I'd guess that these would mask any subtle distortions introduced by supposedly wimpy speaker wire.

Okay: let's treat speaker wires as transmission lines. Do Monster et al specify the characteristic impedance of their cables? (Do they really think that both speaker and amp mfrs can hold their component impedances constant over the full audio spectrum? Good joke.)<ul><li><a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=Greiner+%22Amplifier-Loudspeaker+Interfacing%22&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;i e=ISO-8859-1&amp;btnG=Google+Search">http://www.google.com/search?q=Greiner+%22Amplifier-Loudspeaker+Interfacing%22&amp;hl=en&amp;l

808grouch

I never thought I'd read a post discussing VSWR on Audiworld...! ha ha

Both of you are obviously quite well versed on your EM...

I'm curious to hear what you two have to say about interconnects... I would think that it would make more of a difference than speaker wire because of the lower voltages and input/output impedances of the equipment. Too bad RCA plugs aren't 75 ohms.

Please keep going! I've never been convinced about wire either way...

Thanks,
Gary

HenryK

No haven't gone thru Mr. Russell's site yet, but I will when I get a chance. I have purused much of Jon Risch's reasearch and thoughts. The man amazes me with his knowledge and how intense and focused he is on the subject matter, he is from I can see also very respected in his field.
As far as Monster is concerned, your right I have never seen them publish any performance charateristics except to describe there products in very colorful language for marketing purposes. However I have heard some of their interconnects (but not speaker wire) in comparison to to cheapies and I can say there is an audible improvement. Of course this is very subjective and to some ears it may be more significant then to others. I don't think Monster beleives that their products are the end all and final solution, they are however offering their version in attempt to push the envelope of design (and of course to make money). Interestingly, I have noticed that real audio purest or audiophile tend to pooh pooh their products, but I think this is uncalled for in general.

It would be interesting if someone could take the time to look at it all end to end, apply some sound engineering practices in determining performance charateristics and then actual do a real world trial.

One comment from a poster above above questions if all this is in fact applicable to interconnects. The answer is yes and as he suggests maybe even more critical due to the lower signal levels interconnects are handling. By critical I mean it doesn't impact the actual electrical behaviour of the wire but can have a more significant impact simply due to low signal levels, followed by amplification.

All I can really say and be sure of is research, read, experiment and let your ears be the judge.

HenryK

Why is 75 ohms of concern?

Audi-Sav

there are more things that maximum power transfer that comes into play, also more expensive wires will include time correction in their design.......Bass and Treble travel at different speeds and through different parts of the wire, so these wires take this into account and make sure to delay the treble speed by winding it around, to make sure that arrive at the same time........

pinkertonfloyd

I love bashing Monster... they are so full of B.S. They work on the fact that most people (incuding audiophiles) don't have a clue about Electronics, and how electrons flow (or the fact that all electrons flow at NLS (Near Light Speed) down a wire, and that timing is really a non-issue (it's there but, the speed of light vs. the speed of sound throws it off so that your speakers being ever-so-slightly out of adjustment would cause a far, far more difference. My favorite Monster product is the $50 Toslink Fiber cables... can someone explain why it's better than a $10 one??? They claim it has better noise transfer, I claim it's $40 more profit, and so does my Fluke FSB-100 meter... no difference!

For &lt;= 50 foot runs buy good quality 16Ga Copper Zip cord (I like JSC, it's good American Made Cable)... sit back and relax, if you MUST, JSC and others make pretty damn close Monster knock-off cable, at about 25% of the price.