Oh hell no....
01-17-2007, 05:54 PM
#61
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Love the picture, that's how I used to drive my GTV6, snow tires?
Who needs snow tires? My 164 won't do that in the snow unless I pull some pretty silly stunts. Handbrake works though....
The DSG allows you to concentrate on other aspects of driving, which is why the F1 boys use autoboxes these days. I still doubt it will work well in winter though if you get stuck.
The DSG allows you to concentrate on other aspects of driving, which is why the F1 boys use autoboxes these days. I still doubt it will work well in winter though if you get stuck.
01-17-2007, 06:48 PM
#62
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There's no denying it, DSG is probably one of the best if not the best system out there
It's better than BMW's SMG, smoother and quicker.
However it all boils down to a personal preference on what <b>you</b> as a driver wants to get out of your car. If you don't want to go through the hassle of shifting and operating a clutch, then one of the options.... DSG, automatic, CVT is for you. For the majority of the rest, it's most likely a manual transmission.
April mentions a lot of good points. You feel much more involved and thus the whole driving experience is so much more better. To me, coming up to a stop and downshifting through the gears, to me, just hitting a damn button is no fun for me. Brake hard... heel-toe to blip the throttle before engaging the next lower gear and matching that rev.... a much better experience.
Sure DSG is much quicker than any human can shift, but so what in day-to-day traffic. Not really an issue either for me if I'm out lapping on the track, I'm not out there to set some lap time.... as my insurance company probably wouldn't like that
In the end, we can probably talk through this forever as all these points have already been mentioned.
However it all boils down to a personal preference on what <b>you</b> as a driver wants to get out of your car. If you don't want to go through the hassle of shifting and operating a clutch, then one of the options.... DSG, automatic, CVT is for you. For the majority of the rest, it's most likely a manual transmission.
April mentions a lot of good points. You feel much more involved and thus the whole driving experience is so much more better. To me, coming up to a stop and downshifting through the gears, to me, just hitting a damn button is no fun for me. Brake hard... heel-toe to blip the throttle before engaging the next lower gear and matching that rev.... a much better experience.
Sure DSG is much quicker than any human can shift, but so what in day-to-day traffic. Not really an issue either for me if I'm out lapping on the track, I'm not out there to set some lap time.... as my insurance company probably wouldn't like that
In the end, we can probably talk through this forever as all these points have already been mentioned.
01-17-2007, 06:57 PM
#63
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It's obvious by what you are saying you don't autocross of track your car extensively...
DSG will not work properly in those conditions. Don't take my word for it, I have read articles in which professional race drivers put it to the test and came to that conclusion.
One TT owner/driver that tracks his cars a lot said that the DSG was fun around town and for canyon blasting but at the track it was no so good.
Keeping your eyes inside the cockpit of a car travelling at high speeds to see where the RPM needle is to avoid the tranny's computer from up shifting is not recommended. I have not driven a DSG car in a while so I can't remember for sure but I think the DSG will up shift if it senses the RPM is going up fast enough and it thinks it will need to keep it out of the red zone. So I believe trying to just keep it under the red line might not work, but I could be wrong here.
The launch control is a must because we don't have a clutch pedal to rev up the engine to get a good start off a street corner. They do have launch control in Europe with the DSG and I think we should have it here too. I guess you can thank the US lawyers for that one. VAG was afraid of liability issues in the USA.
As for reliability we will have to wait. The tranny is too new. Remember how good the CVT was supposed to be? How many people had to get their CVT transmission replaced? Is the CVT still around? Don't forget a lot of 2.0T FSI are getting modded and only time will let us know when serious power is available if the DSG can withstand it. Then I still think that upgrading a DSG to meet the requirements of the increased power will be more expensive than a conventional gear box.
Don't get me wrong, <b>the DSG is the best automatic tranny on the market right now</b> and possibly will be for a while but aside from shifting faster than a human can shift a manual, on a track or for aggressive driving it just doesn't cut it for now at least in the way they programmed it here in North America.
I can't wait to see what Porsche does with their PDK/DSG tranny. If Porsche offers launch control and if they allow you to ride the red line without it up shifting, then I will have to say Audi missed the boat yet again.
One TT owner/driver that tracks his cars a lot said that the DSG was fun around town and for canyon blasting but at the track it was no so good.
Keeping your eyes inside the cockpit of a car travelling at high speeds to see where the RPM needle is to avoid the tranny's computer from up shifting is not recommended. I have not driven a DSG car in a while so I can't remember for sure but I think the DSG will up shift if it senses the RPM is going up fast enough and it thinks it will need to keep it out of the red zone. So I believe trying to just keep it under the red line might not work, but I could be wrong here.
The launch control is a must because we don't have a clutch pedal to rev up the engine to get a good start off a street corner. They do have launch control in Europe with the DSG and I think we should have it here too. I guess you can thank the US lawyers for that one. VAG was afraid of liability issues in the USA.
As for reliability we will have to wait. The tranny is too new. Remember how good the CVT was supposed to be? How many people had to get their CVT transmission replaced? Is the CVT still around? Don't forget a lot of 2.0T FSI are getting modded and only time will let us know when serious power is available if the DSG can withstand it. Then I still think that upgrading a DSG to meet the requirements of the increased power will be more expensive than a conventional gear box.
Don't get me wrong, <b>the DSG is the best automatic tranny on the market right now</b> and possibly will be for a while but aside from shifting faster than a human can shift a manual, on a track or for aggressive driving it just doesn't cut it for now at least in the way they programmed it here in North America.
I can't wait to see what Porsche does with their PDK/DSG tranny. If Porsche offers launch control and if they allow you to ride the red line without it up shifting, then I will have to say Audi missed the boat yet again.
01-18-2007, 05:07 AM
#67
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JJ...great points...as usual. but.
Here's my estimate of Audi's prioritization of serving customer's interests, in my humble opinion:
Broad market (i.e. 94.099% of population)
> "enthusiast" market (i.e. 5% of population)
> "autocross" market (i.e. 0.001% of population)
(I think my math works out)
So, I think you can see when your needs will be addressed.
Also, I think you'll agree (I think you have) that the DSG is pretty damn good and really, the only proven flaw is the redline holding....how long do you think it will be before your buddies at MTM crack that one? (The actual wear and tear of 2 clutches is unknown right now.)
Broad market (i.e. 94.099% of population)
> "enthusiast" market (i.e. 5% of population)
> "autocross" market (i.e. 0.001% of population)
(I think my math works out)
So, I think you can see when your needs will be addressed.
Also, I think you'll agree (I think you have) that the DSG is pretty damn good and really, the only proven flaw is the redline holding....how long do you think it will be before your buddies at MTM crack that one? (The actual wear and tear of 2 clutches is unknown right now.)
01-18-2007, 05:52 AM
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I totally agree that the DSG is a very good unit. However, what I don't like is the way VAG tries...
To market the unit as the best or ultimate gear box on the market. They also use in their marketing tool how the thing was developed for the WRC Quattro cars (with Porsche's PDK) and its racing heritage makes it great for enthusiast drivers. Of course they have all their little soldiers (car salesmen) brain washed into thinking so... Until someone points out to them that, well maybe it is not that great for the real enthusiast driver.
Like I pointed out before, the way the DSG is working right now, it is far from being ideal for enthusiast driver. This is not a physical problem with the DSG because all that as to be done is change the software that runs it. They already have launch control in Europe; all that needs to be addressed is the unwanted shifting at the red line.
There is a link in this thread that mentions that a SEAT Leon race car equipped with a 2.0T FSI with 300 HP/360 ft/lb was using a bone stock DSG and that the rev limiter shifting had been altered (software) to remain in the selected gear. So this tells me for sure that it is possible. <b>To me, this is the way the DSG from the factory should be, period!</b>
If BMW with their SMG can give you launch control here and allow you to bounce off the rev limiter all day if you wish and then give you down shift protection, why can't VAG do the same thing?
Give me the same operational potential as the BMW SMG and then I will look at the DSG seriously.
Like I pointed out before, the way the DSG is working right now, it is far from being ideal for enthusiast driver. This is not a physical problem with the DSG because all that as to be done is change the software that runs it. They already have launch control in Europe; all that needs to be addressed is the unwanted shifting at the red line.
There is a link in this thread that mentions that a SEAT Leon race car equipped with a 2.0T FSI with 300 HP/360 ft/lb was using a bone stock DSG and that the rev limiter shifting had been altered (software) to remain in the selected gear. So this tells me for sure that it is possible. <b>To me, this is the way the DSG from the factory should be, period!</b>
If BMW with their SMG can give you launch control here and allow you to bounce off the rev limiter all day if you wish and then give you down shift protection, why can't VAG do the same thing?
Give me the same operational potential as the BMW SMG and then I will look at the DSG seriously.