Winter tires and winter driving, my last word on the subject, for now!
03-08-2006, 11:15 AM
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Winter tires and winter driving, my last word on the subject, for now!
What I have previously said:
1. It is no longer necessary or even desirable to go one or two sizes down and one or two profiles up for winter tires;
2. Taller, narrower tires are known to develop more instantaneous traction for accelerating in a straight line, on snow or ice soft enough for the tire to bite into the surface, this is due mainly to the narrower leading edge of the contact patch and secondarily due to a little more flex in the sidewall;
3. No one has established that there is any other traction advantage in favour of the narrower and taller tire.
4. A taller narrower tire will develop the same total contact patch area as with wider lower profile tires, on the same vehicle at the same tire pressure . Contact patch area is not a relevant consideration.
I now add:
5. The traction advantage in favour of narrower and taller tires is not important.
6. The top priority for any winter tire is braking performance. Any old winter tire and most all seasons will be adequate for snow or ice traction. If traction were the primary desirable feature then two tires would suffice for most vehicles and clearly that is wrong. In fact, this is why I say you don't need awd for winter driving. Getting going is not your problem, stopping and steering adequately when you do get going are paramount.
7. No one has established that braking performance on snow or ice of taller, narrower tires is materially superior to that of wider low profile tires, certainly in the size ranges we're talking about for street use. It is probable that braking performance of the wider tire is likely to be superior to that of the taller tire in most winter driving conditions, including deep snow.
8. The next most important characteristic of winter tires is handling, i.e. accident avoidance. It can be conclusively proved that wider tires work better for emergency maneuvers than narrower tires because the sidewall deforms less for a given slip angle force developed. The road surface is not relevant to this superiority.
9 There is also no doubt that wider tires are superior on bare roads, all of the time, for everything to do with performance. Even heavy rain is no longer the issue it once was, with modern tread designs and reasonable profiles wider tires do not aquaplane. AWD and FWD vehicles tend not to aquaplane anyway and when they do they soon stop doing so, for reasons not relevant to this discussion.
10 For all of these reasons, you should not put narrower and taller tires on your awd Audis, particularly if it is because you believe that this is a good idea for winter driving. Q rated tires are also not recommended because they don't handle well, unless you require the shortest possible braking distances in which case Q's are the way to go, but don't drive over 160 km/hr on Q's for more than a few minutes at a time.
This is, you'll be pleased to hear, my final word on this subject. You all can do whatever you wish and believe whatever you wish. You can continue to try and berate me, or try to insult me, or discourage me from posting to this board, with no effect on me whatsoever except for my amusement at some of the howlers that are being posted, some by people who claim expertise and clearly do not have any.
In answer to "why" I post to this board, the answer is because since the Quattro first came out I have been an admirer of Audi technology. Since the B5 came out I have seriously considered buying an Audi and I remain interested at some point in doing so. I am under no illusions that Audi make the best car in the world or even the best awd system in the world. They certainly do not make reliable cars, but no European manufacturer does. Audi makes very interesting cars that are very interesting to drive. Their road cars make terrible track cars, but who cares, I don't routinely drive on the track. It is a fast and competent road car, in all expected Canadian driving conditions, that marks a superior car for me. Audi does that.
See you around.
1. It is no longer necessary or even desirable to go one or two sizes down and one or two profiles up for winter tires;
2. Taller, narrower tires are known to develop more instantaneous traction for accelerating in a straight line, on snow or ice soft enough for the tire to bite into the surface, this is due mainly to the narrower leading edge of the contact patch and secondarily due to a little more flex in the sidewall;
3. No one has established that there is any other traction advantage in favour of the narrower and taller tire.
4. A taller narrower tire will develop the same total contact patch area as with wider lower profile tires, on the same vehicle at the same tire pressure . Contact patch area is not a relevant consideration.
I now add:
5. The traction advantage in favour of narrower and taller tires is not important.
6. The top priority for any winter tire is braking performance. Any old winter tire and most all seasons will be adequate for snow or ice traction. If traction were the primary desirable feature then two tires would suffice for most vehicles and clearly that is wrong. In fact, this is why I say you don't need awd for winter driving. Getting going is not your problem, stopping and steering adequately when you do get going are paramount.
7. No one has established that braking performance on snow or ice of taller, narrower tires is materially superior to that of wider low profile tires, certainly in the size ranges we're talking about for street use. It is probable that braking performance of the wider tire is likely to be superior to that of the taller tire in most winter driving conditions, including deep snow.
8. The next most important characteristic of winter tires is handling, i.e. accident avoidance. It can be conclusively proved that wider tires work better for emergency maneuvers than narrower tires because the sidewall deforms less for a given slip angle force developed. The road surface is not relevant to this superiority.
9 There is also no doubt that wider tires are superior on bare roads, all of the time, for everything to do with performance. Even heavy rain is no longer the issue it once was, with modern tread designs and reasonable profiles wider tires do not aquaplane. AWD and FWD vehicles tend not to aquaplane anyway and when they do they soon stop doing so, for reasons not relevant to this discussion.
10 For all of these reasons, you should not put narrower and taller tires on your awd Audis, particularly if it is because you believe that this is a good idea for winter driving. Q rated tires are also not recommended because they don't handle well, unless you require the shortest possible braking distances in which case Q's are the way to go, but don't drive over 160 km/hr on Q's for more than a few minutes at a time.
This is, you'll be pleased to hear, my final word on this subject. You all can do whatever you wish and believe whatever you wish. You can continue to try and berate me, or try to insult me, or discourage me from posting to this board, with no effect on me whatsoever except for my amusement at some of the howlers that are being posted, some by people who claim expertise and clearly do not have any.
In answer to "why" I post to this board, the answer is because since the Quattro first came out I have been an admirer of Audi technology. Since the B5 came out I have seriously considered buying an Audi and I remain interested at some point in doing so. I am under no illusions that Audi make the best car in the world or even the best awd system in the world. They certainly do not make reliable cars, but no European manufacturer does. Audi makes very interesting cars that are very interesting to drive. Their road cars make terrible track cars, but who cares, I don't routinely drive on the track. It is a fast and competent road car, in all expected Canadian driving conditions, that marks a superior car for me. Audi does that.
See you around.
03-08-2006, 12:30 PM
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Re: Winter tires and winter driving, my last word on the subject, for now!
My two cents.
Have a -1 tire because I'm too cheap to buy rims that will fit 235 width tires properly. Narrower tires as you mention do provide a bit better bite in snow but then how often do we get snow in the city if we talk about Toronto for example. But in day to day driving while driving appropriately for the conditions in snow covered roads, -1 won't make a difference really.
Had the Hakka 1s, great tires, deep grooves, better suited for deep snow. Sidewalls are soft but the Hakkas had sipes on the snow which gave it a bit more bite when the snow is soft. High speed cornering with the Hakka on pavement, forget it.
Using a set of Kumho I Zen winter performance tires. Seems to have better bite in packed snow. The sipe pattern on the Hakkas are not as aggressive as the Kumho which is key for getting grip in pack snow. I can say that the Kumho's don't have as much grip in deep snow compared to the Hakkas as the Hakkas had deep grooves, which could be useful if you're caught off guard on the highway and hit some deep snow. Regardless, the Kumo's kept me fine when doing 90km/h around a bend on the 400 north of Barrie while my friend got caught off guard in his all seasons and barried the nose of his Altima into the side barrier destroying the right front suspension. My ESP was on throughout the whole trip and it didn't blink once.
In the end there are tradeoffs for using a narrow or wider tire as you mention.
If you're not a rally driver doing gravel/snow, good set of winter tires will be sufficient for most if not all winter drivers.
Have a -1 tire because I'm too cheap to buy rims that will fit 235 width tires properly. Narrower tires as you mention do provide a bit better bite in snow but then how often do we get snow in the city if we talk about Toronto for example. But in day to day driving while driving appropriately for the conditions in snow covered roads, -1 won't make a difference really.
Had the Hakka 1s, great tires, deep grooves, better suited for deep snow. Sidewalls are soft but the Hakkas had sipes on the snow which gave it a bit more bite when the snow is soft. High speed cornering with the Hakka on pavement, forget it.
Using a set of Kumho I Zen winter performance tires. Seems to have better bite in packed snow. The sipe pattern on the Hakkas are not as aggressive as the Kumho which is key for getting grip in pack snow. I can say that the Kumho's don't have as much grip in deep snow compared to the Hakkas as the Hakkas had deep grooves, which could be useful if you're caught off guard on the highway and hit some deep snow. Regardless, the Kumo's kept me fine when doing 90km/h around a bend on the 400 north of Barrie while my friend got caught off guard in his all seasons and barried the nose of his Altima into the side barrier destroying the right front suspension. My ESP was on throughout the whole trip and it didn't blink once.
In the end there are tradeoffs for using a narrow or wider tire as you mention.
If you're not a rally driver doing gravel/snow, good set of winter tires will be sufficient for most if not all winter drivers.
03-08-2006, 01:11 PM
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I still can't tell if you're serious or not(edited).
but here's some info from www.snowtire.info.
"Having driven several Volvo's over the years, I have 5 sets of rims of varying sizes that I use. This gives me a choice of tire sizes for different conditions. The stock tire size on my Volvos have been very similar in overall diameter. They were 165 15, 195/60 R 15, and 195/65 R 15. <b>My "normal" snow tire size is a 185/65 R 15 on 15x6" rims. For running winter rallies in Canada, I have a set of 165/80R15s mounted on narrow, 15x4.5" rims.</b> The third set I have is 185/70 R 14 mounted on 14x5.5" rims."
So his normal tire is 185/65R15, and his rally tire is 165/80R15. Why do you suppose that is?<ul><li><a href="http://www.snowtire.info/#WhatIsOutThere|outline">scroll down, under "What size tire should I run?"</a></li></ul>
"Having driven several Volvo's over the years, I have 5 sets of rims of varying sizes that I use. This gives me a choice of tire sizes for different conditions. The stock tire size on my Volvos have been very similar in overall diameter. They were 165 15, 195/60 R 15, and 195/65 R 15. <b>My "normal" snow tire size is a 185/65 R 15 on 15x6" rims. For running winter rallies in Canada, I have a set of 165/80R15s mounted on narrow, 15x4.5" rims.</b> The third set I have is 185/70 R 14 mounted on 14x5.5" rims."
So his normal tire is 185/65R15, and his rally tire is 165/80R15. Why do you suppose that is?<ul><li><a href="http://www.snowtire.info/#WhatIsOutThere|outline">scroll down, under "What size tire should I run?"</a></li></ul>
03-08-2006, 10:16 PM
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Shampoo is better....
wait... or was that conditioner?
There is no one correct tire choice when it comes to snow tires, because, unlike summer (pretty much wet and dry... take your pick... pavement or gravel, it's either wet or dry), winter roads can take many forms.... deep and fluffy, deep and packy, ice base under fluffy, ice base under packed, bare pavement under packed, bare gravel under ice, bare gravel under patchy snow, slush on gravel, slush on ice, smooth ice (polished), semi-smooth ice, rough ice.... shall I continue? How many words do the Inuit have for snow?
You have to look at what you're most likely to encounter in your daily driving. When I choose winter tires, I take the approach of "do I have enough rims for all of these"... for my audi's, I currently have 3 different sets of snow and ice tires that I run depending on time of the season and what I'm doing. I have the cheap Icetrac's that I try to kill on a daily basis, because they're cheap and plentiful. I've also got a set of Hankook W400's that I picked up as a spare set, but also because they make a good all-round daily ice/snow tire that can handle excessive highway cruising and wet roads. Then i've got the Blizzack's for icy roads.... I ran those at the last overnight winter rally in Bancroft a few weeks back... same width as the icetrac's, but a little taller.
I've also run Toyo Observe G-02's on my old 90q, and even when worn past their first tread level (grippy ice compound), they were still amazing in snow, and decent on gravel. But you could tell they were a wide tire, and had the tendancy to float in the snow a bit.
It all depends on what you drive in. Ever wonder why ralliest carry so many tires with them to an event?
There is no one correct tire choice when it comes to snow tires, because, unlike summer (pretty much wet and dry... take your pick... pavement or gravel, it's either wet or dry), winter roads can take many forms.... deep and fluffy, deep and packy, ice base under fluffy, ice base under packed, bare pavement under packed, bare gravel under ice, bare gravel under patchy snow, slush on gravel, slush on ice, smooth ice (polished), semi-smooth ice, rough ice.... shall I continue? How many words do the Inuit have for snow?
You have to look at what you're most likely to encounter in your daily driving. When I choose winter tires, I take the approach of "do I have enough rims for all of these"... for my audi's, I currently have 3 different sets of snow and ice tires that I run depending on time of the season and what I'm doing. I have the cheap Icetrac's that I try to kill on a daily basis, because they're cheap and plentiful. I've also got a set of Hankook W400's that I picked up as a spare set, but also because they make a good all-round daily ice/snow tire that can handle excessive highway cruising and wet roads. Then i've got the Blizzack's for icy roads.... I ran those at the last overnight winter rally in Bancroft a few weeks back... same width as the icetrac's, but a little taller.
I've also run Toyo Observe G-02's on my old 90q, and even when worn past their first tread level (grippy ice compound), they were still amazing in snow, and decent on gravel. But you could tell they were a wide tire, and had the tendancy to float in the snow a bit.
It all depends on what you drive in. Ever wonder why ralliest carry so many tires with them to an event?
03-14-2006, 06:56 PM
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Yup, and they write in Swedish which
explains why you wouldn't know what they're talking about.
Hey, wait a minute, you seem to have trouble with English also.
Personally, I don't set up my road car for rallying, winter or summer. I set it up for fast driving no matter what the conditions might be.
You can put skinny Q rated wimper tires on if you wish. You also probably think a cold air intake with K & N filter is getting you an extra 10 horsepower.
Hey, wait a minute, you seem to have trouble with English also.
Personally, I don't set up my road car for rallying, winter or summer. I set it up for fast driving no matter what the conditions might be.
You can put skinny Q rated wimper tires on if you wish. You also probably think a cold air intake with K & N filter is getting you an extra 10 horsepower.
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