OK, for all you "eurovan block" lovers, Jerky (me) gets the final word in!!!!
11-10-2004, 06:49 PM
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OK, for all you "eurovan block" lovers, Jerky (me) gets the final word in!!!!
I made a post a few months ago on the "034 motor geek" forum. Some of you guys may have already seen this:
<b>Me:</b><i>
Hey guys,
I usualy hang out on the Audiworld forum, but I need some professional advice for '84 coupe.
This is my current setup:
HEAD:
Rebuilt, Ported "NF" head and intake manifold, stock valves, Tectonics adjustable cam sprocket, K&N air filter, 4000quattro "5 into 3 into 1" exhaust manifold and down pipe ("Jet Hot" ceramic coated), 2¼" exhaust pipe, high flow catalytic converter, 12" glass pack, "3 chamber" Flowmaster muffler, Blau 272° camshaft .
BLOCK:
Rebuilt 2309cc. "NF" engine with 20v windage tray, 5000 oil cooler, 17lb lightened flywheel
The porting was real mild, they just "cleaned up" behind the seats.
My engine has the "old" K "lambda" Jettronic F.I. (not the "K-E" or "K-E-III")
Needless to say it idles like ****e with the cam!
I would like to do more radical porting to the head, I've also heard the best setup is to increase the ex. valves to from 33mm to 35mm...
I'm also considering going to a "Eurovan" block for more displacement (the only problem is, it's got the smaller 81mm bore instead of the 82.5mm bore of the "NF" block I currently have, has anybody bored these out 1.5mm?? They also have longer rods and taller deck height to acommodate the longer 92.8mm stroke).
With the 82.5mm bore I'd have a 2480cc, I can also get a 95.5mm crank for it, that would punch it out to 2552cc.
This is where the 034 comes in, could my current setup benefit from it?
I believe my engine's putting out 150-155hp. at the crank right now, I'd like to get 180-185hp.
I'm thinking of doing this in two stages: head work and 034 first, then the 2.5-2.6L swap.
I know what you guys are going to say... GET AN MC2 TURBO AND DUMP IT IN!!
I don't want a turbo setup!
I sticking with N.A, I like the feel and response of the engine (especial with the lightened flywheel, the throttle response is AMAZING!)
Dan</i>
<b>Cuatrokoop:</b>
<i>All EV's had the 95.5 crank in them, not 92.8....All EV's, regardless of gas or diesel, have the same crank, along with the same rods. Displacement difference for diesel vs gas comes in bore size, 79.5 vs 81.
Carlos ("CS Rally") is running an 034EFI system on an NF/NG, of the B variant (IB or IIB, can't remember), and noticed gains provided from it. Will it get you to 180-185hp, probably not with the stock block 2.3. Are you at 150-155hp right now? Close to it, but probably not. But, you will definately gain noticable power from it, and be set up to run the 2.5L block (go with injectors sized for the 2.5-2.6L even though you are running a 2.3L now, saves you from having to buy two sets of injectors). If you are going to bore the EV block out for 82.5, you'll need to get different pistons (can't rob the NF, wrist pin location and diameter differences IIRC). At that point, may as well go to 83mm and 10.5 to 11:1 compression. 2583cc, with decent compression, you could even hit 200hp given the correct injector sizing and fuel/ignition mapping. Your torque would be excellent as well, 2.6L with a fairly long stroke, would be a proverbial torque monster (well, not quite like a V8, but still)...</I>
<b>Javad Shadzi:</b>
<i>Hey Dan, thanks for sharing about the car, sounds very fun. I've build a few flowed 2.3'd 4kq's over the years, those cars were a lot of fun, the lighter Coupe must really go with the 2.3 in it. I'd say you're about right, you're in the 140-150hp range with that motor currently. I know what you mean about CIS and lumpy cams, the CIS does not like it.
IME, going from CIS to EFI will usually net about 10% hp increase, dyno confirmed - the advantages being better flow, better throttle response and the ability to optimize fuel and ignition settings, which are very tough to manipulate with the CIS system, especially an early system like yours. Maybe Carlos will chime in, he seems to be very happy with the IIb system in his rally car.
WRT stroker motors, assuming you take your current head and bolt it on a 2.5l block, chances are your HP figure may not increase at all. Your torque figure will really grow, however, due to the fact that the larger bottom end will max out the flow through the same head at a sooner rpm. The best way to increase rpm on an NA motor is to move the power band up, not down.
Recently I helped a customer put a Eurospec 2.5l motor into his 2.3l, CIS-3, 272d cam, equipped car. At all 4 wheels it made something like 114hp and 145ft/lbs to TQ. So do your 20% correction at its something like 135hp and 175ft/lbs TQ. You can see HP didn't really increase, torque did significantly. It didn't really want to rev pasts 5krpm either, and not because of the long stroke - its because there is no more air to flow above that point.
So, if you're considering the stroker motor, and you want something that will rev and make HP, not just TQ - then seriously consider going with a more aggressive cam, bigger valves and a serious flow job. I'd recommend 40/35mm valves (7mm stems) to start with, stock flow is 125/90 cfm through the 2v head, get that to 150/110 and you'll be in better shape to take on more displacement.
And of course, an 034efi system would allow you to keep up with all these mods!</i>
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/41804/eurovan.jpg">
<b>Me:</b><i>
Hey guys,
I usualy hang out on the Audiworld forum, but I need some professional advice for '84 coupe.
This is my current setup:
HEAD:
Rebuilt, Ported "NF" head and intake manifold, stock valves, Tectonics adjustable cam sprocket, K&N air filter, 4000quattro "5 into 3 into 1" exhaust manifold and down pipe ("Jet Hot" ceramic coated), 2¼" exhaust pipe, high flow catalytic converter, 12" glass pack, "3 chamber" Flowmaster muffler, Blau 272° camshaft .
BLOCK:
Rebuilt 2309cc. "NF" engine with 20v windage tray, 5000 oil cooler, 17lb lightened flywheel
The porting was real mild, they just "cleaned up" behind the seats.
My engine has the "old" K "lambda" Jettronic F.I. (not the "K-E" or "K-E-III")
Needless to say it idles like ****e with the cam!
I would like to do more radical porting to the head, I've also heard the best setup is to increase the ex. valves to from 33mm to 35mm...
I'm also considering going to a "Eurovan" block for more displacement (the only problem is, it's got the smaller 81mm bore instead of the 82.5mm bore of the "NF" block I currently have, has anybody bored these out 1.5mm?? They also have longer rods and taller deck height to acommodate the longer 92.8mm stroke).
With the 82.5mm bore I'd have a 2480cc, I can also get a 95.5mm crank for it, that would punch it out to 2552cc.
This is where the 034 comes in, could my current setup benefit from it?
I believe my engine's putting out 150-155hp. at the crank right now, I'd like to get 180-185hp.
I'm thinking of doing this in two stages: head work and 034 first, then the 2.5-2.6L swap.
I know what you guys are going to say... GET AN MC2 TURBO AND DUMP IT IN!!
I don't want a turbo setup!
I sticking with N.A, I like the feel and response of the engine (especial with the lightened flywheel, the throttle response is AMAZING!)
Dan</i>
<b>Cuatrokoop:</b>
<i>All EV's had the 95.5 crank in them, not 92.8....All EV's, regardless of gas or diesel, have the same crank, along with the same rods. Displacement difference for diesel vs gas comes in bore size, 79.5 vs 81.
Carlos ("CS Rally") is running an 034EFI system on an NF/NG, of the B variant (IB or IIB, can't remember), and noticed gains provided from it. Will it get you to 180-185hp, probably not with the stock block 2.3. Are you at 150-155hp right now? Close to it, but probably not. But, you will definately gain noticable power from it, and be set up to run the 2.5L block (go with injectors sized for the 2.5-2.6L even though you are running a 2.3L now, saves you from having to buy two sets of injectors). If you are going to bore the EV block out for 82.5, you'll need to get different pistons (can't rob the NF, wrist pin location and diameter differences IIRC). At that point, may as well go to 83mm and 10.5 to 11:1 compression. 2583cc, with decent compression, you could even hit 200hp given the correct injector sizing and fuel/ignition mapping. Your torque would be excellent as well, 2.6L with a fairly long stroke, would be a proverbial torque monster (well, not quite like a V8, but still)...</I>
<b>Javad Shadzi:</b>
<i>Hey Dan, thanks for sharing about the car, sounds very fun. I've build a few flowed 2.3'd 4kq's over the years, those cars were a lot of fun, the lighter Coupe must really go with the 2.3 in it. I'd say you're about right, you're in the 140-150hp range with that motor currently. I know what you mean about CIS and lumpy cams, the CIS does not like it.
IME, going from CIS to EFI will usually net about 10% hp increase, dyno confirmed - the advantages being better flow, better throttle response and the ability to optimize fuel and ignition settings, which are very tough to manipulate with the CIS system, especially an early system like yours. Maybe Carlos will chime in, he seems to be very happy with the IIb system in his rally car.
WRT stroker motors, assuming you take your current head and bolt it on a 2.5l block, chances are your HP figure may not increase at all. Your torque figure will really grow, however, due to the fact that the larger bottom end will max out the flow through the same head at a sooner rpm. The best way to increase rpm on an NA motor is to move the power band up, not down.
Recently I helped a customer put a Eurospec 2.5l motor into his 2.3l, CIS-3, 272d cam, equipped car. At all 4 wheels it made something like 114hp and 145ft/lbs to TQ. So do your 20% correction at its something like 135hp and 175ft/lbs TQ. You can see HP didn't really increase, torque did significantly. It didn't really want to rev pasts 5krpm either, and not because of the long stroke - its because there is no more air to flow above that point.
So, if you're considering the stroker motor, and you want something that will rev and make HP, not just TQ - then seriously consider going with a more aggressive cam, bigger valves and a serious flow job. I'd recommend 40/35mm valves (7mm stems) to start with, stock flow is 125/90 cfm through the 2v head, get that to 150/110 and you'll be in better shape to take on more displacement.
And of course, an 034efi system would allow you to keep up with all these mods!</i>
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/41804/eurovan.jpg">
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