Concealed Weapon Permit classes as mentioned by smitty
11-09-2005, 05:31 PM
#31
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well then your projecting yours on those of us who dont feel safe around a bunch of people with guns
who tell us to trust them just because they passed a course taught by the 1985 county skeet shoot champ...
good reading:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccw_state_2003
now i dont expect that to swing ya, but i just did some breif research, new articles, statistics, reports, etc...and it can all be twisted one way or the other, but i could not find one scholarly work on the effects of conceal carry on violent crime, firearm accidents, or sociological/psychological effects of conceal carry...can you?
what i can say is that you make the argument that it gives criminals pause, but the argument can be made that provides incentive for them to initiate and escalate to more violent tactics because of the person may be carrying...
you see all sides can be argued, and nothing is likely to be irrefutably proved, but what is for sure, is that more weapons roaming about in a fairly "chaotic" (loosely used) society, will lead to more unintentional consequences than less firearms roaming about will, its just mathematics...
i understand the right to bear arms and all that, i agree with it, but there are just to many unknowns when you bring them out into the open and into the general public....
im currently trying to find stats on # of conceal carry permits issued by local
good reading:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccw_state_2003
now i dont expect that to swing ya, but i just did some breif research, new articles, statistics, reports, etc...and it can all be twisted one way or the other, but i could not find one scholarly work on the effects of conceal carry on violent crime, firearm accidents, or sociological/psychological effects of conceal carry...can you?
what i can say is that you make the argument that it gives criminals pause, but the argument can be made that provides incentive for them to initiate and escalate to more violent tactics because of the person may be carrying...
you see all sides can be argued, and nothing is likely to be irrefutably proved, but what is for sure, is that more weapons roaming about in a fairly "chaotic" (loosely used) society, will lead to more unintentional consequences than less firearms roaming about will, its just mathematics...
i understand the right to bear arms and all that, i agree with it, but there are just to many unknowns when you bring them out into the open and into the general public....
im currently trying to find stats on # of conceal carry permits issued by local
11-09-2005, 07:58 PM
#32
your plain mathematics are subjective and unproven
Actually, I have a couple of books with evidence to the contrary. I cannot assume that fewer guns in society is in any way better than more guns in society. Criminals are the problem. Not gun owners. The Brady Campaign would have you believe they are one and the same.
<a href="http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=12569">Gun Control: Explaining The Brady Campaign Report Card</a> - some of the stats you seek are here
<a href="http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=8443">Gun Control: The Brady Campaign, White Lies, and Damn Lies</a> - more on the Brady Campaign here
Remember the "Assault Weapon Ban"? It was in effect from 1994 to 2004. The Brady Campaign was convinced that if the ban were repealed, that our streets would be flooded with assault weapons. They repeated this statement over and over and over again. Have you noticed a flood of assault weapons in the streets in the past year? Have you noticed a marked increase in gun crime in the last year due to this flood of assault weapons?
The answer to both questions is "no". If repealing the assault weapon ban has added a huge number of guns to the streets as Brady states, then they are dead wrong about the violence that occurs as a result of these guns.
I hate to tell you but the Brady Campaign is against guns because they are guns. They are the least reliable source of information on this subject.
On a side note, I appreciate this debate. I thought from your initial remarks that you were like some other people that are against guns and can't debate the subject rationally. I no longer believe that's the case. I hope you don't think I'm a raving lunatic gun nut. I've just spent a lot of time reading about this subject and the arguments for gun control don't stand up to scrutiny.
<a href="http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=12569">Gun Control: Explaining The Brady Campaign Report Card</a> - some of the stats you seek are here
<a href="http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=8443">Gun Control: The Brady Campaign, White Lies, and Damn Lies</a> - more on the Brady Campaign here
Remember the "Assault Weapon Ban"? It was in effect from 1994 to 2004. The Brady Campaign was convinced that if the ban were repealed, that our streets would be flooded with assault weapons. They repeated this statement over and over and over again. Have you noticed a flood of assault weapons in the streets in the past year? Have you noticed a marked increase in gun crime in the last year due to this flood of assault weapons?
The answer to both questions is "no". If repealing the assault weapon ban has added a huge number of guns to the streets as Brady states, then they are dead wrong about the violence that occurs as a result of these guns.
I hate to tell you but the Brady Campaign is against guns because they are guns. They are the least reliable source of information on this subject.
On a side note, I appreciate this debate. I thought from your initial remarks that you were like some other people that are against guns and can't debate the subject rationally. I no longer believe that's the case. I hope you don't think I'm a raving lunatic gun nut. I've just spent a lot of time reading about this subject and the arguments for gun control don't stand up to scrutiny.
11-10-2005, 04:41 AM
#33
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your correct, my argument is subjective point of view...
i know the assumptions of the brady campaign, i actually went into the fetal position when i sourced it...
the issue of conceal carry is about as liberal as i get asside from mandatory child safety locks...i agree and support prolly every other gun right out there, but admitidly am prolly not privy to all the issues...
my opinion really stems from the fact that we dont live in a vigilante (sp?) society and we have laws and protections in place that foster a civil society, i dont trust people enough to make wise decisions 100% of the time while weilding a deadly weapon in public just b/c they filled some minor prereq's and paid the $$
with respect to the assault weapon ban, i cant really say if there has or hasnt been an increase, my first inclination is to say that the prevalence of assault weapons is relatively unaffected by whether they are banned or not, criminal intent with a firearm is illegal whether its an assault weapon or not...the assault weapons ban was most likely more a pr strategy on the part of politicians, and when it was shown to have little consequence, it was repealed b/c the loss of support of the guns rights lobby and public wasn't worth it...
the issue of conceal carry is about as liberal as i get asside from mandatory child safety locks...i agree and support prolly every other gun right out there, but admitidly am prolly not privy to all the issues...
my opinion really stems from the fact that we dont live in a vigilante (sp?) society and we have laws and protections in place that foster a civil society, i dont trust people enough to make wise decisions 100% of the time while weilding a deadly weapon in public just b/c they filled some minor prereq's and paid the $$
with respect to the assault weapon ban, i cant really say if there has or hasnt been an increase, my first inclination is to say that the prevalence of assault weapons is relatively unaffected by whether they are banned or not, criminal intent with a firearm is illegal whether its an assault weapon or not...the assault weapons ban was most likely more a pr strategy on the part of politicians, and when it was shown to have little consequence, it was repealed b/c the loss of support of the guns rights lobby and public wasn't worth it...
11-10-2005, 07:35 AM
#35
I know that sounds logical
But the basis of that statement is really, the presence of guns makes gun violence at least possible, whereas the absence of guns makes it impossible. Do we really need to state the obvious?
Are five guns in the room worse than two? It only takes one gun in the wrong hands to cause a tragedy. Are you really going to evaluate your safety in a given room based on the number of guns present? I'd be more concerned about who has those guns. The gun is a tool. The user is your problem.
How about if the room has four uniformed police officers, and one unknown guy with a concealed weapon? Are you concerned about the five guns in the room? Are you comforted at the 4:1 ratio of cops to other gun handlers?
I acknowledge your 10:0 mathematics but without more context, it is meaningless.
And if it hasn't been said yet, then I'll say it. It's not the licensed concealed weapons holders that you should be concerned about. It's the unlicensed concealed weapons holders that you should worry about.
Are there people that scare me when I think of them carrying concealed? Absolutely. But I'm also nervous around 16 year old drivers. However, I need to worry about myself and let them handle their own business. I don't think either should be barred from exercising their privileges.
Are five guns in the room worse than two? It only takes one gun in the wrong hands to cause a tragedy. Are you really going to evaluate your safety in a given room based on the number of guns present? I'd be more concerned about who has those guns. The gun is a tool. The user is your problem.
How about if the room has four uniformed police officers, and one unknown guy with a concealed weapon? Are you concerned about the five guns in the room? Are you comforted at the 4:1 ratio of cops to other gun handlers?
I acknowledge your 10:0 mathematics but without more context, it is meaningless.
And if it hasn't been said yet, then I'll say it. It's not the licensed concealed weapons holders that you should be concerned about. It's the unlicensed concealed weapons holders that you should worry about.
Are there people that scare me when I think of them carrying concealed? Absolutely. But I'm also nervous around 16 year old drivers. However, I need to worry about myself and let them handle their own business. I don't think either should be barred from exercising their privileges.
11-10-2005, 07:52 AM
#36
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Does anyone here happen to know VA's gun laws?
My grandmother died over 10 years ago in NJ and I had a lot of her stuff in storage here. If while clearing out her junk recently, I found an old pistol, would I be required to do anything relating to registration or similar? Or would I be fine to just keep it and use it at a range if I so chose or even just sell it.
Thanks.
Thanks.
11-10-2005, 08:24 AM
#38
there's a book on VA gun laws
<center><img src="http://www.gunlaws.com/images/vgog_lg.gif"></center><p>This one. You could buy a copy for $15. <a href="http://www.gunlaws.com/vgog.htm">Buy the book here.</a>
Also check out this link: <a href="http://www.vsp.state.va.us/cjis_ftc.htm">VA State Police page</a>
Also check out this link: <a href="http://www.vsp.state.va.us/cjis_ftc.htm">VA State Police page</a>
11-10-2005, 08:31 AM
#39
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"I'd be more concerned about who has those guns."
Exactly, and all it takes is 50 bucks and time at the range or what have you. If you have no need to carry a weapon and chose to do so any way...then I feel you are not the right person to have a concealed weapons permit.
I asked Chris above wht he wants to carry a weapon...and he has yet to answer. Why? Thats aking for trouble in so many ways...not even with just the bad guys and self conflicting ego issues but also with the cops. Youd be surprised how fast a man can get shot by the cops for having a loadede weapon..permitted or other wise. If your life is not in danger and your not a professional body gaurd nor carry large sums of cash, its just a stupid idea.
I asked Chris above wht he wants to carry a weapon...and he has yet to answer. Why? Thats aking for trouble in so many ways...not even with just the bad guys and self conflicting ego issues but also with the cops. Youd be surprised how fast a man can get shot by the cops for having a loadede weapon..permitted or other wise. If your life is not in danger and your not a professional body gaurd nor carry large sums of cash, its just a stupid idea.
