[VIR in-car vid] soliciting inputs from you experienced folks
11-27-2007, 01:37 PM
#22
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To me, 14 isn't a 'corner', it's just a twitch in the back-end while I'm braking...
I don't start braking until @ or just after the arrow after the brake-markers, and play with pedal pressure to get the car positioned and aligned (because both the location of the car, and its 'angle of attack' re: the apex are important) for 14a. I'm maximizing speed thru there, trying to grab some time in the '14a thru 17' section.
If I'm in race traffic, I'll defend the inside going into 14a. If you're in roughly similar equipment, being first into 14a = first at the finish line, since passing opportunities between 14a and 17a are pretty much non-existant, unless you give somebody the big nudge. Being 'first' does not translate into being 'fast'. A more 'big picture' approach is to carry more speed out of 14a. Watch traffic sometime...note how much a slow car coming out of 14a really stacks traffic up going down the hill. There is time to be found there....
If I'm in race traffic, I'll defend the inside going into 14a. If you're in roughly similar equipment, being first into 14a = first at the finish line, since passing opportunities between 14a and 17a are pretty much non-existant, unless you give somebody the big nudge. Being 'first' does not translate into being 'fast'. A more 'big picture' approach is to carry more speed out of 14a. Watch traffic sometime...note how much a slow car coming out of 14a really stacks traffic up going down the hill. There is time to be found there....
11-27-2007, 01:44 PM
#24
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very interesting discussion guys! keep it up! :) [edited]
I've been thinking thru Pros and Cons of both ways. Alas, THINKING only. No hard data, and little experience (4 VIR-full wkends only).
My conclusion right now, is that it's dependent on cars (not just HP/Wgt, but back straight spd and how the car behaves under braking), but also individual's style.
I'm using the dive bomb method because of this train of thought...
If I start with classic school line of brake-turn-gas-brake at the end of a LONG straight, couldn't I carry the straight speed further by trying to eliminate the 'gas' in the middle? and just brake later/harder, once?
Some things might prevent that... namely, that 'turn' in the middle. I have to brake down to a speed to be able to make that 'turn' (T14).
For the case of faster cars like Vette & such, because of the higher entry speed, the braking HAS to start earlier during the straight (placard "1" or higher). Of course, braking shifts the balance of the car to be front loaded (& at high spd still). Trying to trail brake turn that T14 could be gutsy...
BUT my lil Miata only hit 110mph, so I can brake way late (at or past the "0" placard), and really take advantage of that short little uphill compression (just before T14 apex). In fact, I can brake AFTER started entering the turn. So the car balance issue that a faster car would have, doesn't affect me, as much.
So what if I could pull this off in my Miata and faster car might have more difficult? What am I trading off?
The way this armature is looking at it, is that I'm trading off distance/time gained by prolonging the back straight max speed (treating it as Cat-2 corner), and giving up the entry speed for the next straight (Cat-1 corner)... as Andrew (Another Drew) pointed out.
BUT!
In my lil Miata, as compared to other car, I can bleed speed off just as good (if not better) than other cars; but I suck at building that speed back up! Hence I prioritize the prolonging of the back straight speed by diving bombing, and give up the speed for that following <u>short</u> straight. Additionally, that's a downhill segment, which further "shortens" the effective length of that straight... (and because there's entry speed limit down stream @ Hogpen, that limits the escalation effect of T14 method to Hogpen entry only)
I would like to be able to dive bomb to the LEFT side of T14a entry (classic school line), but that would require MORE left turning while under heavy braking... follow by maybe a sharpER right turn for T14a (than straight dive bombing)... might require heroic courage (or mad skillz I don't yet have) to keep the car's balance happy... which the lil Miata might face the limits on laws of physics as well. :-)
Anyway, that's just my thoughts. Does my trade off decision yield me better net gain? 'Seem' like it (as PoTTomac suggested), but I dunno for sure. Would really LOVE to gather some hard data under controlled setup to see how it really falls out!
My conclusion right now, is that it's dependent on cars (not just HP/Wgt, but back straight spd and how the car behaves under braking), but also individual's style.
I'm using the dive bomb method because of this train of thought...
If I start with classic school line of brake-turn-gas-brake at the end of a LONG straight, couldn't I carry the straight speed further by trying to eliminate the 'gas' in the middle? and just brake later/harder, once?
Some things might prevent that... namely, that 'turn' in the middle. I have to brake down to a speed to be able to make that 'turn' (T14).
For the case of faster cars like Vette & such, because of the higher entry speed, the braking HAS to start earlier during the straight (placard "1" or higher). Of course, braking shifts the balance of the car to be front loaded (& at high spd still). Trying to trail brake turn that T14 could be gutsy...
BUT my lil Miata only hit 110mph, so I can brake way late (at or past the "0" placard), and really take advantage of that short little uphill compression (just before T14 apex). In fact, I can brake AFTER started entering the turn. So the car balance issue that a faster car would have, doesn't affect me, as much.
So what if I could pull this off in my Miata and faster car might have more difficult? What am I trading off?
The way this armature is looking at it, is that I'm trading off distance/time gained by prolonging the back straight max speed (treating it as Cat-2 corner), and giving up the entry speed for the next straight (Cat-1 corner)... as Andrew (Another Drew) pointed out.
BUT!
In my lil Miata, as compared to other car, I can bleed speed off just as good (if not better) than other cars; but I suck at building that speed back up! Hence I prioritize the prolonging of the back straight speed by diving bombing, and give up the speed for that following <u>short</u> straight. Additionally, that's a downhill segment, which further "shortens" the effective length of that straight... (and because there's entry speed limit down stream @ Hogpen, that limits the escalation effect of T14 method to Hogpen entry only)
I would like to be able to dive bomb to the LEFT side of T14a entry (classic school line), but that would require MORE left turning while under heavy braking... follow by maybe a sharpER right turn for T14a (than straight dive bombing)... might require heroic courage (or mad skillz I don't yet have) to keep the car's balance happy... which the lil Miata might face the limits on laws of physics as well. :-)
Anyway, that's just my thoughts. Does my trade off decision yield me better net gain? 'Seem' like it (as PoTTomac suggested), but I dunno for sure. Would really LOVE to gather some hard data under controlled setup to see how it really falls out!
11-27-2007, 02:03 PM
#25
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wow! 8-O
<i>"I don't start braking until @ or just after the arrow after the brake-markers, and play with pedal pressure to get the car positioned and aligned (because both the location of the car, and its 'angle of attack' re: the apex are important) for 14a. I'm maximizing speed thru there, trying to grab some time in the '14a thru 17' section."</i>
Okay, THAT's the mad skillz I was talking about on my previous post!
So John, you are able to brake THAT late AND make the Left T14 to set up on the LEFT side for T14a right turn?! I'll need to try that next time I'm @ VIR Full! :-) tho slow incrementally, lest I spin (again!)
My lingering ponder: does the speed gain offset the extra distance of going further LEFT for T14a?
Okay, THAT's the mad skillz I was talking about on my previous post!
So John, you are able to brake THAT late AND make the Left T14 to set up on the LEFT side for T14a right turn?! I'll need to try that next time I'm @ VIR Full! :-) tho slow incrementally, lest I spin (again!)
My lingering ponder: does the speed gain offset the extra distance of going further LEFT for T14a?
11-27-2007, 02:24 PM
#27
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you just wanna add another VIR spin to my record! :-P
But srsly, I'll have to try that... carefully! (same as I <a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/51894.phtml">responded</a> to John)
11-27-2007, 02:28 PM
#28
Cool. I will definitely try you way (next year!). Re catching up, I realize that...
... it will always appear that I'm catching up AT 14A because the gap (in distance not time) always closes when speeds are lower. By catch up, I was thinking in segments. The TIME gap between me and the car taking the other line measured from 14 to 16 seems to narrow. But I'm a hack with no data so I should keep an open mind.
11-27-2007, 02:31 PM
#29
It's contrary to what I've said above, but if you believe the Skippy book, you always...
... give up entry speed to gain exit speed before a straight, not vice versa. In other words, I've not read anywhere in the book where you sacrifice the line in order to stretch out the END of the straight you're on -- rather you sacrifice a corner in order to stretch out the straight that you're entering.
11-27-2007, 02:44 PM
#30
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I haven't finish the Skippy book yet...
but even in the face of: end of a long straight vs upcoming short downhill straight? Question not directed at you Greg, but more of putting it out there for others to chime in.
I've to go finish reading my...
I don't have enough behind my belt to go 1 way or another. But it's always good to get that thought provoking brain cell working, and lay my own train of thought out there for other experienced to give me feedback on. My ultimate goal is to be able to think through and mentally dissect & analyze, when faced with a new (track) situation.
Thanks a bunch guys! :-)
I've to go finish reading my...
I don't have enough behind my belt to go 1 way or another. But it's always good to get that thought provoking brain cell working, and lay my own train of thought out there for other experienced to give me feedback on. My ultimate goal is to be able to think through and mentally dissect & analyze, when faced with a new (track) situation.
Thanks a bunch guys! :-)