SKS

I'll agree with that, "high on the list"...good to have a list.

Johannes Erdfelt

I think one of the weaknesses of the S4 are the rotors. I warp them everytime I go to the track

LCP

...I couldn't really remember how the stock S4 brakes performed the instant brake pressure was applied at Texas World Speedway at 120, so I decided to do that test a couple times on the freeway driving home tonight (and yes, miraculously, at the best point of the freeway it had almost completely opened up from traffic in all of the 6 lanes). The stock S4 brakes would lockup and trigger ABS within about 1/3 of a second of brake application at 120 -- actually better than I thought from memory, but the grab just didn't feel that great. ABS did its stuff quite proficiently down to 80mph when I let off the brakes. I drove JohnJ's S4 the day after he put Alcon's on and while the Alcon's defiinitely grabbed better, I could not get a shorter stopping distance from 70-0 than I could with my stock brakes (although (1) I've read that the AVS Sports on my S4 finished first in a comparison test for braking traction, (2) my tires were 235 vs. his 225 and (3) John didn't quite have the brakes installed right the day I drove them -- he had to bleed them more to solve pedal travel issues, which supposedly improved his brake response a lot), but nonetheless I think I want more clamping force at triple digit speeds than the stock S4 has to offer...and I don't think the simple upgrade to 996 brake calipers will do that.

Mike O.

Parts are readily available for APs from BRITS in CA. (and they are cheap)

Larrytt

Anytime we are in the same area at the same time, lets do a nice comparison of the two. I am just as curious as you and Cathleen are about the AP Racing brakes. I saw her A4 at Summit Point the past two days. A very impressive looking car to say the least. I talked to her about the Alcon brakes, she said she is not even sure of the differences in the braking capabilities of the two setups, so how can you draw a conclusion?

I also don't like that you said; <b>"And, knowing what I know now, even if I settled on AP calipers, I would go with an Alcon rotor if I were on the track for prolonged periods."</b> Have you ever driven the AP Racing brakes? It sounds like you have only driven a few Porsches with stock brakes and your Alcon A4 and Cathleen's A4 with Alcons.

You mention as one of the reason for going with the Alcons is because they are used by the factory Audi race teams. Well I am sure you are well aware of a small racing series called Formula 1, am I correct in this assumption? Are you aware that those teams use a variety of different calipers and rotors? Alcon, Brembo and AP Racing! Their are others, but these are the "big 3". Just thought I would also point that out to you.

RENN 951

I don't think they're ready to market them just yet, but it looks like it has a lot of potential<p>John G
00 S4 Silver/Silver
99 A6 Avant Brilliant Black/Vanilla-Onyx

Cameron

... as they are usually well-informed and well-written.

Your observations are correct as to the brands used in Formula 1, but it should be noted that quality is not uniform across a brand and that suitability is not universal across all applications.

What I mean by the first statement is that the brakes Brembo sends to F1 teams are of different quality from the brakes Brembo sends to the Porsche OE parts bin.

What I mean by the second statement is that the brakes on the 993 Turbo work very well on the 993 Turbo, but work differently when one puts brakes designed for the 993 Turbo on a big, heavy sedan like the S4 - just as the brakes on the Ferrari F40 work very well, but F40 brakes on an E36 ///M3 perform differently.

I have not driven the same car with Alcon and AP setups, and hence am curious to do the comparison you describe. I can, however, say with confidence that the AP racing upgrade I have seen on a Porsche RS America was very impressive and offered braking well beyond the stock brakes on that car, having driven stock and AP-equipped RS-A's. The application on this car was an AP kit over, if I recall correctly, the factory Porsche 993 GT2 rotor hardware.

The rotor comment was made from what information I've gathered on Alcon rotors versus the competition and was made - specifically and clearly - in the context of what choices I would make as a consumer in a position to buy rotors for an aftermarket brake setup.

As for your racing series comments, AudiSport UK used exclusively Alcon calipers for the A4 and AudiSport Australia used Alcon and Brembo calipers for the A4. Hence, when choosing brakes for the A4, I gravitated toward race application calipers for this model in particular - not calipers used in other segments of motorsport that might be usable on that model.

When choosing calipers for the TT, I chose to buy another set of Alcon calipers, simply because I was satisfied and decided to be a "return customer" - the same reason I have been buying Pirelli tires and Recaro seats.

Going to the NorCal event in October?

Cameron

Larrytt

How long will you be in NY? Or are you already home?

Cathleen

Hi Larry :-) Nice to have met you at Summit Point this week!
Just to clarify....the point I was making at Summit this week was in relation to the claim made by the person that was selling the AP kit. I said that even I would not make claims as to caliper clamping force percentage of the Alcon versus the AP kit because *I* haven't got data at this point to back that up. For this person to make a statement that the Alcon "only" has X% more clamping force than the AP, without real and valid proof, is a big red flag. This person must have true data to back up any off the cuff statements like that and I'd be pretty certain he does not. I doubt he has even ridden in an Alcon-equipped car, let alone been given the clamping force or ANY technical data from Alcon UK/USA.
I don't make such precise statements against another product like that, simply because it is not credible unless proven in valid testing.

You are correct, AP and Brembo DO make RACE brakes but they are not the same thing as the OEM brake kits we are talking about here. The Brembos, Porsche/Brembos and APs used in the kits we're talking about are OEM/street products. Alcons are true, purpose-built race brakes with full dust and weather seals. They don't make a street/OEM-applications product line. The construction and proprietary materials that are used in Alcon's race calipers are different than these OEM products. So we are kind of comparing an apple to an orange when comparing a street/OEM kit to a race brake kit that can be used on the street.

Audi used/uses Alcon in BTCC, World Challenge, etc. Even many Porsche racers have upgraded their OEM Porsche/Brembos to the Alcons. What this tells me is that these race teams have researched their options and chosen what they feel to be the best product for their application.

I don't necessarily think that it means that every club enthusiast should go out and buy them. If the OEM Brembo/Porsche or AP kits meet your needs, then that is a good purchase for you or whomever.

I would certainly say that on heavier cars like an S4, you should be more careful in what you buy. More brake IS better in the case of a very heavy car that may even be chipped and is used for track events.
:-)
-Cathleen

Larrytt

Cathleen it was nice meeting you at Summit too! Next time I see you at a track I would like a ride in your A4! I will also put forth an invite for you to take a ride in my TTQ!

I am trying to get to the answer to your question at Summit and will let you know when I find out.