how do you determine top speed on a road course?
12-12-2003, 04:58 PM
#1
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how do you determine top speed on a road course?
curious as to how you go about determining what is 10/10 on a road course without putting the thing into a barrier or other car. specifically on high speed areas/sections.
in particular i have done about 6 events at Pocono over the past two years. there are some high speed sections on the oval. some folks go much faster than me regardless of make and tires, etc. i would guess they have a better understanding of what the limits of their abilities and car are than me.
how do you safely get up to say 7/10 or 8/10 and no when you should be feathering or lifting?
i'd hate to stomp on it and be doing 120 not knowing that doing 123 would put me off and into a really bad crash.
in particular i have done about 6 events at Pocono over the past two years. there are some high speed sections on the oval. some folks go much faster than me regardless of make and tires, etc. i would guess they have a better understanding of what the limits of their abilities and car are than me.
how do you safely get up to say 7/10 or 8/10 and no when you should be feathering or lifting?
i'd hate to stomp on it and be doing 120 not knowing that doing 123 would put me off and into a really bad crash.
12-12-2003, 05:27 PM
#2
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enh, that's the thing...
you don't know unless you are willing to take the chance of putting the car in the wall.
That's why we use purpose-built race cars. One fact of going fast is that if it's "comfortable" or you feel like you have it completely under control, you aren't going fast enough on a road course.
But it also means that you fall off the road sometimes.
That's why we use purpose-built race cars. One fact of going fast is that if it's "comfortable" or you feel like you have it completely under control, you aren't going fast enough on a road course.
But it also means that you fall off the road sometimes.
12-12-2003, 06:15 PM
#3
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ugh.
guess i need to push a little bit more each lap...and cross fingers that i can keep it out of the wall.
but guys like you and pro-racers "do" push to 9/10 or 10/10 and don't put into the wall every outing...there's got to be a way to creep up on it.
but guys like you and pro-racers "do" push to 9/10 or 10/10 and don't put into the wall every outing...there's got to be a way to creep up on it.
12-12-2003, 07:15 PM
#4
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Because they are consistent...
Work on being consistent no matter what pace you plan to run at. If you can be consistent then you only need to find the limit and stay very close but within it.
12-12-2003, 08:06 PM
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First, I'd suggest ...
try creeping up on the limits at a slower speed track with safe run-off area; something like Gingerman comes to mind. You need the seat time to know what the car feels like near the limit, and until you know what it feels like, you need to be somewhere where the consequences of going over the edge mean nothing more than a trip on the grass or thru a sandtrap.
Nagaro is absolutely right about the important of consistency. At 10/10 th's, you're totally committed for the corner. <b>Any</b> deviation -- turn in a bit sooner, brake a bit later, adjust throttle in the corner -- will result result in an off track excursion. As a result, it's a little difficult to do this in many corners with your daily driver. And pro racers do go off on road courses, especially during qualifying when you've got time to fix the car before the race.
BTW: We've never raced our Formula Continental on an oval. An off on a road course may mean you have to replace a-arms, an off on an oval means you buy a new car.
Nagaro is absolutely right about the important of consistency. At 10/10 th's, you're totally committed for the corner. <b>Any</b> deviation -- turn in a bit sooner, brake a bit later, adjust throttle in the corner -- will result result in an off track excursion. As a result, it's a little difficult to do this in many corners with your daily driver. And pro racers do go off on road courses, especially during qualifying when you've got time to fix the car before the race.
BTW: We've never raced our Formula Continental on an oval. An off on a road course may mean you have to replace a-arms, an off on an oval means you buy a new car.
12-12-2003, 09:19 PM
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10/10th is relative to your experience and your car's capability
so the they say never to overdrive yourself...something like that. 
i couldnt even imagine how else to measure one's self other than checking the time you've put in and maybe seeing who else you are beating today
i couldnt even imagine how else to measure one's self other than checking the time you've put in and maybe seeing who else you are beating today
12-13-2003, 07:47 AM
#7
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What's the point......
...it's a track event and I gather it's your daily driver.
In a nutshell you are driving the car at it's limit when it's nearly out of control. In other words the car is slipping and fighting for grip and you are having to make corrections with either the pedals or the steering wheel.
Skip Barber once said that if the car isn't sliding and you don't feel like the car is ready to lose control you aren't driving near the limit.
In most DE's and driving schools they teach you smoothness and taking a set with the steering wheel. Well that to me is a bunch of baloney if you are trying to drive near the limit. The car should be loose at every corner and you should be sawing at the wheel to keep from going off.
The part about getting the car to the limit is easy.....JUST DRIVE FASTER
BUT......being able to continually bring the car back from the limit or being over the limit takes experience and some pick it up quicker than others. For me it took years to be comfortable driving the car at the limit and saving it frequently.
That being said it makes little sense to attempt these things with a daily driver and less experience. The biggest problem I see is that some one in say an S4 sees someone else take a turn at some speed and then they say to themselves....well if his S4 can take that turn at that speed mine can. Of course they are discounting the driver.
One of the dumbest things I hear all the time at DE's is the following:
"if you have a faster car behind you let him through and follow him to see what he is doing..maybe follow his line"
Most people aren't faster because they have a BETTER line, they are faster because the can carry much more speed through a turn and you aren't going to be able to learn anything by watching them carry 10 extra miles per hour through a turn. If you already are using the same line as the faster driver you aren't going to learn anything watching him use his superior skill.
The rule of thumb at most DE's is that 10% are driving at the limit and the rest aren't even close (6/10's).
If you watch this video below at the Glen you will see that the car is slipping at most every turn. This is damn near driving on the limit. The tires were near the end fo their life but you can see that the often heard DE quote take a set with the steering wheel and hold it doens't apply near the limit.
The most basic way to know is of course lap times and this should be discouraged for DE's because in the end it leads to people driving outside their limits and their cars which sould be reserved to racing.
The video below was of a 2:08 at Watkins Glen. The pole time for my car is a 2:05:9 so eventhough it looks like I am at the limit of my car it's more likely the limit of my driving ability since I am still 2 seconds off the pace.
Regards,
Jon
95 F355 C (for sale)
88 M5
98 SRF
96 Integra<ul><li><a href="http://jpkofod.lunarpages.com/fastlap.mpg">Near the limit at Watkins Glen !</a></li></ul>
In a nutshell you are driving the car at it's limit when it's nearly out of control. In other words the car is slipping and fighting for grip and you are having to make corrections with either the pedals or the steering wheel.
Skip Barber once said that if the car isn't sliding and you don't feel like the car is ready to lose control you aren't driving near the limit.
In most DE's and driving schools they teach you smoothness and taking a set with the steering wheel. Well that to me is a bunch of baloney if you are trying to drive near the limit. The car should be loose at every corner and you should be sawing at the wheel to keep from going off.
The part about getting the car to the limit is easy.....JUST DRIVE FASTER
BUT......being able to continually bring the car back from the limit or being over the limit takes experience and some pick it up quicker than others. For me it took years to be comfortable driving the car at the limit and saving it frequently.
That being said it makes little sense to attempt these things with a daily driver and less experience. The biggest problem I see is that some one in say an S4 sees someone else take a turn at some speed and then they say to themselves....well if his S4 can take that turn at that speed mine can. Of course they are discounting the driver.
One of the dumbest things I hear all the time at DE's is the following:
"if you have a faster car behind you let him through and follow him to see what he is doing..maybe follow his line"
Most people aren't faster because they have a BETTER line, they are faster because the can carry much more speed through a turn and you aren't going to be able to learn anything by watching them carry 10 extra miles per hour through a turn. If you already are using the same line as the faster driver you aren't going to learn anything watching him use his superior skill.
The rule of thumb at most DE's is that 10% are driving at the limit and the rest aren't even close (6/10's).
If you watch this video below at the Glen you will see that the car is slipping at most every turn. This is damn near driving on the limit. The tires were near the end fo their life but you can see that the often heard DE quote take a set with the steering wheel and hold it doens't apply near the limit.
The most basic way to know is of course lap times and this should be discouraged for DE's because in the end it leads to people driving outside their limits and their cars which sould be reserved to racing.
The video below was of a 2:08 at Watkins Glen. The pole time for my car is a 2:05:9 so eventhough it looks like I am at the limit of my car it's more likely the limit of my driving ability since I am still 2 seconds off the pace.
Regards,
Jon
95 F355 C (for sale)
88 M5
98 SRF
96 Integra<ul><li><a href="http://jpkofod.lunarpages.com/fastlap.mpg">Near the limit at Watkins Glen !</a></li></ul>
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12-13-2003, 09:27 AM
#8
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
some clarifications...
fortunately it's not my daily driver.
i don't really want to drive at 10/10...just be able to understand when i am close to the limit so i know i'm getting the most out of the car and my abilities.
i want to enjoy myself..not be sawing at the wheel to keep it on the track. i do believe i am "smooth". and i'm certainly relaxed at the wheel which i consider a good thing. but most of the time i am searching for a slightly faster line WITHOUT pushing a lot faster...which is probably my problem? i think a lot also has to do with the limited track time i have under my belt.
here's two of mine for critique:
Pocono South - <a href="http://www.velozt.com/elements/mov/poc-aug-31-hirez.rm">vid
2</a>
Pocono North - <a href="http://www.marsavius.net/vrace/events/pocono-may-2003/d2-r2.rm">vid
1</a>
i don't really want to drive at 10/10...just be able to understand when i am close to the limit so i know i'm getting the most out of the car and my abilities.
i want to enjoy myself..not be sawing at the wheel to keep it on the track. i do believe i am "smooth". and i'm certainly relaxed at the wheel which i consider a good thing. but most of the time i am searching for a slightly faster line WITHOUT pushing a lot faster...which is probably my problem? i think a lot also has to do with the limited track time i have under my belt.
here's two of mine for critique:
Pocono South - <a href="http://www.velozt.com/elements/mov/poc-aug-31-hirez.rm">vid
2</a>
Pocono North - <a href="http://www.marsavius.net/vrace/events/pocono-may-2003/d2-r2.rm">vid
1</a>
12-13-2003, 10:17 AM
#9
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to do consistent 10/10, you have to have gone 11/10 at least once
to know where that limit is.
that's how I do it anyway. just make sure you spin where's there's open green
when there are walls, or water, etc. I'll gauge by comparing the turn to a similar turn where there's no wall. I'm not able to drive 100% on incstinct, so I have to use markers like my speed and RPM. I look at my exit speeds and just go faster gradually.
easier said than done of course
regards,
Liam
that's how I do it anyway. just make sure you spin where's there's open green
when there are walls, or water, etc. I'll gauge by comparing the turn to a similar turn where there's no wall. I'm not able to drive 100% on incstinct, so I have to use markers like my speed and RPM. I look at my exit speeds and just go faster gradually.
easier said than done of course
regards,
Liam